New Run Atlas C-630s with DCC Sound

[drbnc]

Apparently their sales and pre-orders haven't met their expectations.  Odd, since there are TONS of Conrail modelers out there, right?  They claim they are losing $$$ on N scale.  Maybe a focus group or groups would work? Dunno how they think N is like HO.

[jdcolombo]

I'm not sure I'd characterize wires as a step backward.  Maybe given the successful pickup-strip design of diesels one might think so.  But I have hard-wired all the trucks in my steam locomotive tenders (including the Kato and Bachmann ones that used a pickup-strip design) because wires give me more reliable electrical conductivity than the pickup strips.  Yes, they might break, but I've never had one do so in a few years of running.  And pickup strips get corroded, bent, sometimes are not properly aligned with the truck tabs, and so forth.  They aren't a perfect design, either.  I always assumed that this design was to speed assembly time, not the result of what some engineer considered "best" for reliably conducting electricity.

John C. 

[peteski]

Apparently their sales and pre-orders haven't met their expectations.  Odd, since there are TONS of Conrail modelers out there, right?  They claim they are losing $$$ on N scale.  Maybe a focus group or groups would work? Dunno how they think N is like HO.

Again, you are talking one manufacturer and one model.  They were quite successful with their locomotive offerings (they re-released the UP Big Blow turbines).  Hey, even if they get out of N scale permanently, there are plenty of other N scale manufacturers.  You seem to have fixated on a single specific example of  a manufacturer griping about low pre-orders. And Scale Trains example is not even close to the amount of griping about low pre-orders and cancellations of N scale items.  Intermountain and BLI are way ahead of Scale Trains when it comes to that (and also the length of time it takes them from the pre-order and to when they finally produce their models).  But this is way off-topic here anyways.

[peteski]

I'm not sure I'd characterize wires as a step backward.  Maybe given the successful pickup-strip design of diesels one might think so.  But I have hard-wired all the trucks in my steam locomotive tenders (including the Kato and Bachmann ones that used a pickup-strip design) because wires give me more reliable electrical conductivity than the pickup strips.  Yes, they might break, but I've never had one do so in a few years of running.  And pickup strips get corroded, bent, sometimes are not properly aligned with the truck tabs, and so forth.  They aren't a perfect design, either.  I always assumed that this design was to speed assembly time, not the result of what some engineer considered "best" for reliably conducting electricity.

John C.

I realize John that the pickup strips are not an ideal  solution either. Each method has its positives and negatives. But like you said, nothing beats ease of assembly (and disassembly, which as a locomotive tinkerer, is an important thing) and the design simplicity of the metal strips design.

The reliability (already pretty good) can be improved further by polishing the contact areas.  I sand the metal nubs on the truck sideframes until smooth, then polish them to a mirror shine. I then also polish the contact areas on the pickup strips. The metal polish seems to leave some kind of residue which protects the metal from oxidizing.  This takes about 20-30 minutes per model (including partial  disassembly) and it lasts for a very long time.  I just love how the locos with metal strip pickups allow for quick removal of the trucks for servicing. Loosen the screws holding the chassis halves and the trucks basically fall out. No wires tethering the trucks to the chassis to unsolder or unplug.  I'll take the pickup strip design over wired design on any model.  No comparison!

[Rossford Yard]

Spoke with both Scale Trains and IM at KC.

C39-8 is a very limited model, I can understand low pre-orders in N.  In general, N sales are 25-30% of equivalent HO models, from many industry sources.  I suppose our mfgs could just keep offering box cars and GP 9 and F7 units, which sell well.  I am glad to see them reaching new directions, but do understand the limited appeal of some models.  I got the impression from a few discussions that 300 is still the magic minimum number of pre-orders to do a certain road.  The real key, IMHO, is for the mfgs to find a way to be profitable at lower run numbers for oddball locos.

IM reported low pre-orders of the GP-10 as well.  Maybe it's because I want one (or more) and maybe some of the odd roads (even IC is an "under represented" Class I road in terms of modelers) and the short lines may or may not sell.

Atlas has consistently run and apparently done well with several lower modeled roads, terminal lines and short lines.  (I also wanted a sound equipped Alco 630 for Minn Commercial, but apparently those didn't get enough pre-orders, because they only came in DC.  I had to buy one of those and another sound chassis to get what I want.  An expensive pain, but not the end of the world.)

The combo of a little used loco on a lesser modeled road (yes, Conrail and NS are somewhat perplexing) makes for low pre-orders.  Every case is specific, but in general, I think SF, SP and UP still outsell most other roads by 6 to 1.  Kato even mentioned that BNSF doesn't sell as well as ATSF and BN, so there is that. 

[Jbub]

One new model, from one company. That is not "sky falling". Even with all the Intermountain cancellations, these are still the best times in N scale (even if some recent mechanism designs seem to be mowing backwards). 

Not to mention that the prototype was not a wide spread car with a few units ordered by the roads who owned them.

[squirrelhunter]

I for one appreciate Scale Trains being upfront about how their N scale manufacturing experience is going. As a consumer, I think it helps to know a vendor needs support with pre orders rather than finding out after the fact when a model is cancelled or a company decides to stop selling in N.

I'm kind of surprised how poorly the reservations for the C39-8 were given how popular anything Conrail seems to be and the fact that they really did range far and wide, especially after the big mergers in 1996-99.

I saw the thread on TrainBoard where someone was upset that ST isn't planning to bring their Tunnel Motors to N right now. But I think it's unfair to ask ST to bring a Tunnel Motor to market with Intermountain sold tons of them in several variations. I get the IM model has some shortcomings, but they are not badly outdated models that are in desperate need of replacement.

I'd love ST to bring their SD40-2s to N, partly because they will do an excellent job at it, but partly because they do a vastly better job of getting product in on schedule.

[jdcolombo]

I realize John that the pickup strips are not an ideal  solution either. Each method has its positives and negatives. But like you said, nothing beats ease of assembly (and disassembly, which as a locomotive tinkerer, is an important thing) and the design simplicity of the metal strips design.

The reliability (already pretty good) can be improved further by polishing the contact areas.  I sand the metal nubs on the truck sideframes until smooth, then polish them to a mirror shine. I then also polish the contact areas on the pickup strips. The metal polish seems to leave some kind of residue which protects the metal from oxidizing.  This takes about 20-30 minutes per model (including partial  disassembly) and it lasts for a very long time.  I just love how the locos with metal strip pickups allow for quick removal of the trucks for servicing. Loosen the screws holding the chassis halves and the trucks basically fall out. No wires tethering the trucks to the chassis to unsolder or unplug.  I'll take the pickup strip design over wired design on any model.  No comparison!

Agree about ease of servicing.  I personally would prefer the pickup strips on diesels (alas, I’m less impressed with that system in steam tenders.  Maybe a weight issue?).  But for foolproof electrical conductivity, it’s hard to beat wires. . .

John C.

[mu26aeh]

In IMRC's case, I have a feeling that the low pre-orders are because most of us know their history with cancellations or taking years to come to fruition.  Double edged sword, I want to support them and have the product come to market, so I put in a pre-order.  But then months/years later we get a notice of cancellation or stuff gets run, we forget about the pre-order and boom, email sent with your shipping notice and you don't have the funds to pay for it cause you've spent it elsewhere.

[DeltaBravo]

In IMRC's case, I have a feeling that the low pre-orders are because most of us know their history with cancellations or taking years to come to fruition.  Double edged sword, I want to support them and have the product come to market, so I put in a pre-order.  But then months/years later we get a notice of cancellation or stuff gets run, we forget about the pre-order and boom, email sent with your shipping notice and you don't have the funds to pay for it cause you've spent it elsewhere.

My issue with a preorder from the manufacturer is that you pay full MSRP. yet if they run them and you purchase through Kleins or other shops you get it for below MSRP.  I wouldn't mind grabbing an NS from Scale trains to help them out, but I don't want to pay MSRP.

[mu26aeh]

My issue with a preorder from the manufacturer is that you pay full MSRP. yet if they run them and you purchase through Kleins or other shops you get it for below MSRP.  I wouldn't mind grabbing an NS from Scale trains to help them out, but I don't want to pay MSRP.

I have my pre-orders thru Mainline. 

[peteski]

Agree about ease of servicing.  I personally would prefer the pickup strips on diesels (alas, I’m less impressed with that system in steam tenders.  Maybe a weight issue?).  But for foolproof electrical conductivity, it’s hard to beat wires. . .

Yeah, until they break.  I know, I know  - they don't break. 

Seriously though, factory installed wires are generally poorly installed.  Starting with nicking the copper conductors when the insulation is stripped weakens the wire.  Then they are haphazardly soldered (since the assemblers are in a rush).  They also have no strain relief which would make them more immune to breaking (usually at the location where insulation ends, where they are weakened by stripping insulation).

Here is an example of factory installed wire (BLI Cantipede).  This loco was test run only then disassembled by me.



As you can see the solder joints are not very good and if left in this condition would eventually fracture and break where the insulation ends. Also note the green residue - they likely used acidic flux which will further weaken the copper wire.  Not to mention that the blob of solder is actually pushing the plastic sideframe piece outwards not allowing the pickup plate to seat properly in it.

I used this specific model because I already had it sitting disassembled on a shelf next to my workbench.  But I could pretty much dig up any model which has factory soldered pickup wires, and they will look just as bad, or worse.  I bet that if I had one of the new Atlas C-630s, their solder joints would be just as nasty.

When I service locos with wire harnesses, I always re-do the solder joints.  I trim the wire ends to get to a pristine section of wire, strip them with a thermal stripper (it melts the insulation instead of cutting through and nicking the wire), and I carefully solder the joints.  If possible, I also install some sort of strain-relief.  If you are as fastidious as I am with wire feeders then I'm not surprised that they do not break.  But most molders will not be redoing the factory made solder joints. So, they will eventually fail.  That is why I do not like factory-installed feeder wires.

[reinhardtjh]

Atlas has consistently run and apparently done well with several lower modeled roads, terminal lines and short lines.  (I also wanted a sound equipped Alco 630 for Minn Commercial, but apparently those didn't get enough pre-orders, because they only came in DC.  I had to buy one of those and another sound chassis to get what I want.  An expensive pain, but not the end of the world.)

Ouch.  Knowing what I know now from both hands-on experience and what others have said, you could have just bought the DC model and slipped an ESU 73199 in and you'd be set. 

[jagged ben]

The pickup strips ought to be redesigned to be four pieces that firmly insert into the chassis above each side of each truck.  The old double pickup strips that ran through the fuel tank area weren't going to keep working with speakers taking up more space there.  Also it's good to no longer see them hanging out in the air beneath the walkways.   But in my opinion there was no good reason to go with wires instead of just redesigning the copper pieces and attachment to the chassis. 

Maybe they tried and just didn't have enough time in the production schedule to perfect getting good contact.  I'm trying to be charitable.

[BCR 570]

As you can see the solder joints are not very good

The Atlas model I saw looked nothing like that.  The wires were protected where they exited the frame, and the solder joints to the tabs on the trucks looked very well done.  I made a point of checking that because I knew it could be an Achilles heel for this design approach.

I am willing to give this approach hte benefit of hte doubt and see how it fares.  i have to go this route for a few locos I am modelling with narrow fuel tanks, where the strips have to  go.


Tim