Steam at 120+MPH?

[learmoia]

One of the undocumented stories from the steam days was the speeds that were reached in an effort to stay on schedule..

England has the claim to fame of having a steamer documented running 126MPH.. but little if any evidence of US trains reaching those speeds beyond story telling.

However, I call your attention to a clip in an old New York Central Video. 

Any time I watched this video - The following clip always stood out as unusually fast.. but not due to film speed conversion.. (The Speed in which the photographers walk away is a bit fast.. but note the paper flying in the wind seems to move at a natural speed.

(If the link doesn't do it.. Skip to 6m17s)

So lets say the film was processed at the correct speed..
How fast was the train moving?
We have a fixed point thanks to the shadow cast on the train.  And using the UP Car as a moving point to run a timer.
I came up with .4525 seconds for the 85' UP Car to pass the shadow's edge.  (I had to slow the video to 1/4 time to get the reading).
So 85' / 0.4525 gives 187.84 Feet Per second... (or 125MPH!)

Not the most scientific speed measurement, but interesting footage to watch.

EDIT.. after rewatching a downloaded copy to see if the choppyness was still there (I never noticed it before).. I played with the speed of the video and .60 looks much more natural... (So that takes the train speed down to 70MPH.. Booo. )

~Ian

[Lenny53]

"The F2a 3000 class of CPR locomotive established the speed record of 181 km/hr (112.5 mi./hr.) in 1937."  4-4-4 Jubilee

[Chris333]

That video looks strange. Like it was a VHS playing on a TV while some one was filming the TV.

[learmoia]

That video looks strange. Like it was a VHS playing on a TV while some one was filming the TV.

I think its something in the youtube transfer.. My VHS copy (of a copy) doesn't do that..

I have a downloaded copy as well and when I slow it down to .60 speed it looks much more natural.. which would put the speed at 70mph vs 125.. Booo..

Still a cool vid.. (second half of the vid is CNJ and Erie steam)

~Ian

[wcfn100]

England has the claim to fame of having a steamer documented running 126MPH.. but little if any evidence of US trains reaching those speeds beyond story telling.

The Milwaukee Road was documented at those speeds.  They topped 100 as part of their normal schedule.

Jason

[nkalanaga]

The MILW also had at least one speed limit sign saying "Reduce Speed to 90 MPH".  Of course, it wasn't on the Pacific Extension...

[Mark5]

N&W Class J documented at 110 mph pulling 15 passenger cars (tested by PRR).

It is said that a J could do 120, but that is undocumented ...

Mark

[PiperguyUMD]

N&W Class J documented at 110 mph pulling 15 passenger cars (tested by PRR).

It is said that a J could do 120, but that is undocumented ...

Mark

It’s a shame one didn’t survive for speed testing 

[peteski]

While "only" 100MPH, this is pretty darn good accomplishment (especially since it happened last year).
https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/791086/steam-train-reaches-100mph-Britain-mainline-rail-network

[nkalanaga]

I don't doubt that a J could have reached 120 mph.  Unlike DC motors, steam engines have no inherent speed limit.  The motors are limited by their maximum voltage, while a steam engine will continue to accelerate as long as it has enough steam.  The limit there is mechanical, either something in the engine breaks, or, in the case of a locomotive, the imperfectly balanced rotating masses break the rails.  So, if there is enough steam, the moving parts are strong enough, and everything is balanced well, the only other limit is keeping on the track, which has little to do with the power source.

[Maletrain]

Well, steam locomotives can and did run out of steam, or more specifically, out of the ability to produce enough  steam to keep things moving at high load. 

The energy input that keeps things moving is the fire in the fire box.  If you take steam out faster than the fire can create more by boiling water, then the steam pressure drops, and power output drops.  That is the theoretical limit to top speed, if nothing mechanical breaks.

In real railroading, engineers on steam engines pulling a load up a steep grade would often have the throttle wide-open, and experience the train slowing down as it went up.  Things like engine assignments and train tonnage values were set-up to make sure the trains could crest the summits, but sometimes a train would stall on a grade.  Rating steam engines for specific maximum tonnage on grades was the operating departments way of avoiding stalls.

I would write more, but I am "running out of steam."

[trainforfun]

"The F2a 3000 class of CPR locomotive established the speed record of 181 km/hr (112.5 mi./hr.) in 1937."  4-4-4 Jubilee

Lenny is it when they send fire trucks from Montréal to Québec city to help with a big fire ?

[trainforfun]

It’s a shame one didn’t survive for speed testing 

First the "J" is still alive and well !
On a trip last year behind the 611 ( "J" ) we were restricted to 40 mph .
I bought an aluminium plate in the souvenirs car with the loco specifications and it says it was designed for 120 mph.

[havingfuntoo]

First the "J" is still alive and well !

Thanks for that, I can now come out of my state of descending depression. I thought it had recently been rebuilt, and was wondering what on earth had they done to it. Not another bunch of blunders like they had on the UP.

[nkalanaga]

Maletrain:  Oh yes, steam locos can run out of steam, and in many cases, as you said, that was the limiting factor on their speed, especially for freight engines.  That was also one of the reasons for 4-wheel trailing trucks, as they could support a larger firebox, which in turn could heat a larger boiler.

The Erie Triplex was the classic example.  Putting a third engine under the tender sounds great, right?  But the boiler couldn't supply steam to three engines, except at very low speeds.  Not too successful...

The GN went the other way.  They took obsolete 2-6-8-0s and put the boilers on 2-8-2 chassis, making some of the world's biggest Mikes.  Plenty of steam there!  Unfortunately, burning coal, they didn't work well, as the GN's coal was almost worthless.  It came from Sand Coulee, MT, and had a lot of sand in it.  When burned, it expanded like popcorn, making a clinker larger than the original coal.  Converted to oil, they worked well enough to inspire the all-new O-8 class, which may well have been the largest 2-8-2 built.