Why I don't care for separate factory-applied grabs

[JanesCustomTrain]

Much better.

Don't think so, one of the antennas is the wrong way around.

Errrr, no they're not !

Jane

[Missaberoad]

One observation, the fact that some separately applied details are poorly rendered does not mean that All separately applied details are poorly rendered... Take for example the Trainworx Gondolas (GSC and Thrall) and the latest Atlas boxcars (1932ara & PS1)
There is nothing to complain about with these models, in fact the Trainworx gondolas has better looking grab irons then any model I've ever seen in N scale...

The solution is not to stick with the old ways... its for manufacturers to "Do better" or for modelers to ummm whats the word? Model!

As an example This is factory N scale (image from ebay)

[peteski]

(Funny, no one has mentioned that broken coupler in the original pic) 

Ed

The coupler (broken, oversize, or otherwise) was not mentioned because that was not the subject of the discussion.    And I also realize that there are quite a few compromises in N scale models, but what bugs me is that companies try to improve accuracy by adding those free-standing metal grabs but then have them stick out way too far.  And yes, "foot or two" is an exaggeration, but so is the distance those grabs stick out.

[wcfn100]

One observation, the fact that some separately applied details are poorly rendered does not mean that All separately applied details are poorly rendered... Take for example the Trainworx Gondolas (GSC and Thrall)

I'm sure there are those that don't like the flat nature of the etched parts.

Aside from grabs, there are other issues with the Thrall gondola.

Jason

[mu26aeh]

I'm with Pete, the first thing I saw was the grabs.  While they have nice details, I'm like Jane with IM in my view of ST, given what my LHS said about their ordering and pricing policy.  They won't be stocking anything from them, so I won't have anything on the layout from them. 

As far as IM goes, I went and grab pics of my SD40-2.  I think I'm happier with these than those.

[nuno81291]

Don't think so, one of the antennas is the wrong way around.

Jane

  well then more poopoo on ST for releasing a stock image of an incorrectly assembled model, or shipping one if the watermark owner took the photo (just grabbed it off google for comparison).

Anyways you miss my point; in HO they did a great job with relative scale of add on parts. The N model I am not so sure is benefiting from the oversized parts, that of course is in the eye of the beholder and these grabs and handrails on the N scale model I think do not do justice to a “rivet counter” title. I am out of the loop with the state of The art in N, and maybe jaded by observing the beautiful work of those on this forum. I think if I saw this unit in person my eyes would be attracted to the grabs and rails, for the wrong reasons.  .

Edit: the more I look at photos of it online the less offensive they seem. Good on ST for pushing the envelope with this sort of thing. They don’t look fragile enough to me for being n scale (where we commonly find members of this forum concerned with out of scale details from leaf litter to dirt size) so I’m sure the effect is good for some. In earnest I do not have the patience to make n scale grabs, this would be welcome as an offering in my book.

[ednadolski]

... that was not the subject of the discussion.   

Good one.  Since when has that ever stopped you, mój przyjaciel?   

And I also realize that there are quite a few compromises in N scale models, but what bugs me is that companies try to improve accuracy by adding those free-standing metal grabs but then have them stick out way too far.

Take another look at that picture.  The standoff distance is actually pretty close to the drop height, and that is nowhere close to a scale foot.

I think what you are seeing is an accumulation of several things:

 - First, the grabiron diameter is indeed oversized.  If they are 0.008" wire that is ~50% oversized compared to a scale 0.005", and will certain create a 'chunky' impression.  But if you put scale-sized parts next to those plastic handrails they will not look right either.  So this is something of a no-win criteria, and it just has to be accepted as a part of N scale. (Or else, go get out the 0.005" wire and #94 drill bits and start making your own parts, because no one else is going to do it for you. Even if you drop a few hundred dollars on a brass diesel you will end up pretty much in the same boat.)

- Second, the drop height is exaggerated compared to the prototype.  This likely is also a necessity of practical manufacturing.  I don't think this is grossly out of scale either, but it does of course give you "more to see" compared to the prototype.

- The lighting in that picture is creating very strong shadows, and these are at an angle that makes them appear very wide and prominent.  Of course that too is going to add to the 'busy' look.   But I bet if you took a similar pic with the lighting near the lens of the camera, there would be a dramatically decrease in that effect.

Again, I think this is more about the perception than the reality.

And yes, "foot or two" is an exaggeration, but so is the distance those grabs stick out.

It's not merely an exaggeration.  You're saying that that they stick out halfway or more into the walkway, which is flat-out absurd.  If you want to keep digging in on that, it's up to you.   Meanwhile, I'm happy to wait for those measurements that you promised. But I don't think the numbers will be as dramatic as you are making out.

Ed

[tom mann]

Ok guys let’s move on.

[jagged ben]

Keep it civil, guys.

... the example he posted is probably the best implementation of pre-installed separate grabs yet - so @scaletrains should be complimented.

This.

[Mark W]

[nkalanaga]

Rossford:  Do you maybe mean 0.015"?  0.15" would be about 5/32", and I don't think they stick out quite that far.  But I do agree with Peteski on this one - they stick out too far.  To me, they don't look too large, compared to the handrails, but they could be pushed in a little.

[dandopinski]

Locomotive grabirons :there is a 4 inch gap from the body. Which works out to .025" in N scale according to my Evergreen styrene data sheet. One could easily fabricate a guage out of styrene strips....and post the results.
 

[thomasjmdavis]

The photos of the Trainworx gondola and the IM SD-40-2 make it clear that some companies have done a better job of this on at least some of their models. 

I, for one, would be interested in the diameter of the ST parts before and after painting.  Some years ago, I had a model that had crappy detail, painted in UP armour yellow (or the manufacturer's opinion of what that was).  I stripped the paint off the model to discover that the detail on the shell underneath was much better than I thought it was- the paint was so thick that it obscured everything. 

From the look of the applied grab irons in a couple of the photos on this thread, or the latest BLI F units (with the nose ladder grabs over on the BLI thread) I wonder if the manufacturers might be using a dip process  rather than spraying those parts, and a paint formulated to be somewhat "thick" in order to take some abrasion and be flexible enough to not crack off if the tiny wire underneath gets bent by a couple microns.  Rather like the "dip" insulation material for small wires, or the tool handle coating that comes in a can.

[chicken45]

I consider us to be the 1% of modeling here. We have some of the best in the world at what they do here.
It is almost our responsibility to bring things like this up. To always point out what is wrong. TO COUNT RIVETS. All while not being an a$$. And we are mostly successful at that LOL. 

My point is if we see something, we should say something and be respectful about it. Because then attention can be brought to it and possibly be fixed.
Compliment sandwich time:
It is awesome to see someone applying all these details at the factory and it will please many people.
It is not perfect yet and needs some tweaking based on the picture, IMO.
I am thankful to see innovation in the hobby.

Besides...the line is called "Rivet counter." I'm sure they know their demographic haha!

[ednadolski]

Besides...the line is called "Rivet counter." I'm sure they know their demographic haha!

Ironically I probably would not buy the rivet-counter version.  I would rather do the operator level since I make my own detail parts from wire and etchings (grabirons, handrails, cut levers, air hoses, pilots, ...).  It wouldn't make much sense to get the detailed version having decided a priori to replace the factory details.

Unfortunately my modeling era ends at 2012, just before these beasts made it onto the rails. ::verysad::

Ed