Athearn Challenger, Good Grief!

[mmagliaro]

There are probably a lot of disappointed customers that we don't hear about.  That's the nature of consumerism.
A lot of angry, dissatisfied customers don't say anything.  They just grumble and never buy from the seller again.
It's also possible that a lot of the bad engines have been repaired by their owners or by friends of their owners
(like the one that came to me to fix up).

This is why some modelers just suck it up and fix engines themselves instead of sending them in.  It isn't right or fair, but it's totally understandable.

[carlso]

Note to all. I understand the OP was regarding Challenger problem and it has migrated to discussing time for repair completion to actually questioning Athearn's QC. I totally agree with Max's comments in last post but I may be more harsh if given a chance. Athearn QC isn't that an oxymoron??

I want to expand this to the new Big Boy when I purchased one plain, no DCC at all. It would not run. So as Max suggests I decided to find the problem myself as I want to install an ESU with the largest speaker/enclosure that I can find. I'll show what the problem just might be,do ya think. I have an offer for a $35 repair job. Whoopee !!!

This first image is in the tender and you can see were the employee melted part of the plastic and applied two large gloobs of solder so they were touching. I think I can say 'direct short'. I took my #11 blade and cut a clearance between the two :



This second image is what I found after I removed the boiler shell. No M2 wire. It looks like it was soldered at one time but no wire. Comment: I did not pull it off, there was no loose wire period. I suspect that if I sent it to Athearn their repair person could/would do a better job for me.



I suppose that I will, as Max says, suck it up and attempt to repair it myself. Hell, I can't mess it up much worse. Any suggestions? I was hoping they might produce an n scale MT4, but I won't be spending money with Athearn in the future without some major changes on their part.

On the slim positive side, I guess I could take the guts out of it, beat it up and weather it some and model the UP train that towed it from California to Cheyenne.

As always have fun,
Carl

[peteski]

Yea, the days of German ladies precisely assembling N scale model locomotive, taking lots of pride in their work, are long gone. (Yes I know that this is not a model from a German company, but even those German companies no longer assemble their models in Germany).  Nowadays it is all about lowest price and quantity, not quality. Kato is a rare exception (with their still-in-Japan assembled models). I know that this is not a fair comparison because Kato designs their models to minimize wiring nnd soldered connections).  But where they have soldered connection, those are done neatly and cleanly.

[mmagliaro]

Well, as to that M2 wire, I can tell you having been inside the Challenger that the solution there is straightforward.
There should be another wire going from the other motor terminal to that M2 pad (analogous to the M1 wire).

You will need to get the circuit board out in order to get down to the motor so you can solder the missing wire to its terminal.  Generally, I had to unsolder all the wires from the board (there were headlight and other wires),
and then I could get the board off.  That will expose the motor enough that you can probably solder a wire to its terminal without actually removing the motor.

Then you thread the wires back up through the opening in the circuit board as you put it back into place, and resolder all the wires to their respective pads on the board.

[Kentuckian]

There are probably a lot of disappointed customers that we don't hear about.  That's the nature of consumerism.
A lot of angry, dissatisfied customers don't say anything.  They just grumble and never buy from the seller again.
It's also possible that a lot of the bad engines have been repaired by their owners or by friends of their owners
(like the one that came to me to fix up).

This is why some modelers just suck it up and fix engines themselves instead of sending them in.  It isn't right or fair, but it's totally understandable.

Several years ago when I was with state government taking customer service training they told us you only hear from about 5% of your dissatisfied customers.

[carlso]

Max, I am planning to do that  as soon as I finish an on  the bench project.

Peteski, what worries me is that our modern society, as a whole, seems to more and more accept mediocrity. I guess I contribute to that.

Carl

[kverdon]

I was able to make contact with the entailer that sold me the original loco. He had a death in the family which led to the delay in the refund.  What is worse Horizon refused to take the unit back and are making him send it for repair. Remember that this unit was DOA out of the box with the same issue as the original poster. Unbelievable. I am done with Athearn. For that matter, unless someone does the NCL, I am done buying N Scale as well. My layout is pretty much complete and does not need any more locomotive power.  With the poor quality of what is coming out, why bother. I'm spending my train money now on vintage postwar Lionel that I can work on myself and still runs 50-70 yrs after it was made.

Thanks,

Kevin

[peteski]

Max, I am planning to do that  as soon as I finish an on  the bench project.

Peteski, what worries me is that our modern society, as a whole, seems to more and more accept mediocrity. I guess I contribute to that.

Carl

As I see it, using that silly phrase, the paradigm has shifted. Regardless of how much we complain to the manufacturers about the product quality, nothing will change.  Outsourcing their production offshore (and going to the low bidder to maximize profit and still keep the prices reasonable) is the reason for the poor quality.  Only in extreme examples (like the unusable out-of-the-box  GHB PRR L1 brass loco) the model will be re-run. In less extreme examples, companies will look the other way, while attempting to pacify unhappy customers,. But the quality will not improve.

[Cajonpassfan]

From the little I know, Athearn customer service is pretty good for their HO scale models. Perhaps N scale is too much bother... 
Otto K.

[rgengineoiler]

You know,  I started this thread just to complain some because I had always wanted a Challenger for my mostly operational layout.  I have been working on scenery the last two years but when these came out I decided, "why not".  I surmise this was destined to be a "Murphy decision", to say the least.  After looking at the pictures above, I believe my loco would probably look the same inside but I did not want to void the warranty.  I guess time will tell and at my age I do have patience for a time.  I am not a wealthy individual but I do want to spend money wisely.  I would rather pay a percentage more and not have issues like this.   If Athearn is trying to keep the price down with manufacturing work like this,  they will lose a customer base that will not return because of the quality.  I sent my model in using FedEx signature delivery to be sure there were no mistakes.  That was not cheap either and just adds to the value of this issue.  I do appreciate all your replies to this issue and it educates me on the subject.   DR

[mmagliaro]

They designed a good engine (the Challenger), but they don't have good follow-through to make sure the assembly and QA are done well.  And from the delays in repairs, some owing to getting parts, they have completely failed in the support of these engines.  They should not be waiting for parts from China.  That should have been part of their deal - a supply of parts delivered with the engines.

The soldering on the Challenger I fixed was nothing short of terrible.  Wires snaggling everywhere, not well-routed, not held down.  The two very fine (almost like wire wrap wire) leads to the headlight were just loose and coiled and bent all over the place, just begging to become a failure point.  I fixed a first-gen Challenger a few years ago, and the assembly was very different.  The wires on that circuit board were neatly looped and pressed down flat in groups, with small, neat solder joints.

[Mark W]

They designed a good engine (the Challenger), but they don't have good follow-through to make sure the assembly and QA are done well.

Forgive the pun, I think the design itself is the cause of all these challenges.
The mechanism is ok, and overall when assembled correctly, it is a very good engine. But the way everything comes together is such a nightmare that even a good QC team can easily miss things. 

For example and comparison, removing the Athearn centipede tender shell is a multi-step in order procedure and involves removing multiple screws and extra parts in specific directions/orientations.
The Kato centipede tender shell pops right off just like any regular boxcar shell.  Even with the extra details included on Athearn's tender, there's still no reason it had to be so complicated. 

I think it's a case of shooting themselves in the foot.  I do applaud their customer service, they've always worked with me to correct issues.  In my opinion it's the product development team that need improvement.

[peteski]

I think it's a case of shooting themselves in the foot.  I do applaud their customer service, they've always worked with me to correct issues.  In my opinion it's the product development team that need improvement.

I highly suspect that Athearn has that models both, designed and manufactured in China,  unlike Kato where design is done in Japan by very skilled and clever engineers.  As I analyze construction of all my N scale  models I clearly see the differences between Japanese and Chinese (designed and manufactured) models. I'm not trying to put down China - I'm just stating the obvious. I suspect the the cultural differences are partially at play here.  Japanese are know to put lots of pride in their work (and self-punish themselves if they fail to achieve their goals), while I suspect that in the Communist China, there is less incentive to consistently try to do your best.

I base this opinion on my own experiences living in Communist Poland back in the 70's.  We got paid the same, regardless of how much effort we put into our work. There was no "official" unemployment since every individual of labor-age had to have a job.  So most just gave their minimum effort while performing our jobs.  Things made locally was poor-quality. Cars, appliances, models, etc.  While I realize that China is not quite the same what Poland used to be 50 years ago, I suspect that there are many similarities.

[mmagliaro]

Forgive the pun, I think the design itself is the cause of all these challenges.
The mechanism is ok, and overall when assembled correctly, it is a very good engine. But the way everything comes together is such a nightmare that even a good QC team can easily miss things. 

For example and comparison, removing the Athearn centipede tender shell is a multi-step in order procedure and involves removing multiple screws and extra parts in specific directions/orientations.
The Kato centipede tender shell pops right off just like any regular boxcar shell.  Even with the extra details included on Athearn's tender, there's still no reason it had to be so complicated. 

I think it's a case of shooting themselves in the foot.  I do applaud their customer service, they've always worked with me to correct issues.  In my opinion it's the product development team that need improvement.

Point well taken, sir.  Yes, a more robiust "Kato like" design would make it far less likely to induce wiring and other sloppy assembly mistakes.  A good design can make it much more impossible to put something together the wrong way, or to leave a part or connection out.  The Challenger design is not in Kato's "Mikado" league by any stretch. 

The main point I was trying to make was that there has been a decline in their assembly quality from the first run to the current one, and I think it's showing up in higher failure rates.  The first one could easily have had all these failures if the assembly and QC had been just as sloppy, since the design and parts layout was almost identical.

[strummer]

I'm spending my train money now on vintage postwar Lionel that I can work on myself and still runs 50-70 yrs after it was made.
Thanks,
Kevin

...and parts are (still) always available; go figure....

Mark in Oregon