Author Topic: A Tension Dephasit Layout Project  (Read 12213 times)

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nkalanaga

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Re: A Tension Dephasit Layout Project
« Reply #45 on: March 24, 2018, 02:56:41 AM »
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If white LEDs produce that much UV, what will it do to colors over time?  I know sunlight and fluorescents will fade many materials.
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coosvalley

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Re: A Tension Dephasit Layout Project
« Reply #46 on: March 24, 2018, 04:11:20 PM »
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I saw the write up on the LED strip lighting over on Model:160, and thanks for sharing what you've learned!

lashedup

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Re: A Tension Dephasit Layout Project
« Reply #47 on: March 26, 2018, 09:42:46 AM »
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If white LEDs produce that much UV, what will it do to colors over time?  I know sunlight and fluorescents will fade many materials.

Overall it seems that the consensus is that LEDs emit less UV than other bulbs so long as we are talking about regular lights and not plant or UV specific lights.  Museums seem to be going the LED direction as well.

- Jamie

peteski

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Re: A Tension Dephasit Layout Project
« Reply #48 on: March 26, 2018, 09:43:54 PM »
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I have a feeling that many of the problems in color rendering may be due to how different materials respond to the UV component of white LEDs.

All white LEDs use blue/UV emitters that excite a layer of phosphors above the emitter, which then transform it into some variation on "white" (not unlike how fluorescent lamps work). The problem is that white LEDs release far more UV light than any tungsten lamps, or even many fluorescent lamps.

All of that UV light causes different materials to react differently, although this isn't as evident to the eye because the white light tends to drown out this response. But many cameras will pick up on this, resulting in shifts and distortions in colors that may not be seen under normal conditions.


Interesting.
LEDs emit relatively narrow wavelength (color) of light. While there are some LEDs which can emit light in the UV wavelength, it is usually very long-wavelength UV light, close to the visible violet/blue.
Vast majority of the white LEDs (available in a wide range of color temperatures) utilize a common and inexpensive visible-light blue LED die coated with a phosphor which converts portion of the blue light to longer wavelengths light (yellow, red, etc.). The combination of the blue and longer wavelength light fools the human eye into seeing it as white light.  But those LEDs emit very little (if any) light in the UV range.  The temperature of the white light is controlled by the specific phosphor formula and by how much of the blue light is allowed to pass through the phosphor.  Near-UV LED and phosphor based LEDs do exist, but are relatively rare.

But a white LEDs which emit the higher temperature (more bluish white) light, can dramatically affect the color of the objects they are illuminating. But I don't think that there is much (if any) UV light in play.

I would actually venture a statement that incandescent (especially halogen) light bulbs emit more light in the UV range than a blue die based white LED.

Some good reading material is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Light-emitting_diode#Phosphor-based_LEDs

It shows a graph of wavelengths emitted by a typical inexpensive white LED based on blue LED die and phosphor.



There is very little light emitted in the UV region.
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mark.hinds

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Re: A Tension Dephasit Layout Project
« Reply #49 on: March 26, 2018, 11:43:40 PM »
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Interesting.
LEDs emit relatively narrow wavelength (color) of light. While there are some LEDs which can emit light in the UV wavelength, it is usually very long-wavelength UV light, close to the visible violet/blue.
Vast majority of the white LEDs (available in a wide range of color temperatures) utilize a common and inexpensive visible-light blue LED die coated with a phosphor which converts portion of the blue light to longer wavelengths light (yellow, red, etc.). The combination of the blue and longer wavelength light fools the human eye into seeing it as white light.  But those LEDs emit very little (if any) light in the UV range.  The temperature of the white light is controlled by the specific phosphor formula and by how much of the blue light is allowed to pass through the phosphor.  Near-UV LED and phosphor based LEDs do exist, but are relatively rare.

But a white LEDs which emit the higher temperature (more bluish white) light, can dramatically affect the color of the objects they are illuminating. But I don't think that there is much (if any) UV light in play.

I would actually venture a statement that incandescent (especially halogen) light bulbs emit more light in the UV range than a blue die based white LED.

Some good reading material is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Light-emitting_diode#Phosphor-based_LEDs

It shows a graph of wavelengths emitted by a typical inexpensive white LED based on blue LED die and phosphor.



There is very little light emitted in the UV region.

The problem with that graph is that it doesn't show emissions below 300 nm, and just because the graph is flat at 300 doesn't mean it stays that way, depending on the particular source.  Although UVC (100 - 290 nm) from the sun is normally filtered out by the ozone layer, that doesn't apply to artificial sources. 

Now these guys have an axe to grind, but still:  http://www.nouvir.com/index.cfm?ref=90200&ref2=9
« Last Edit: March 26, 2018, 11:48:21 PM by mark.hinds »

peteski

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Re: A Tension Dephasit Layout Project
« Reply #50 on: March 26, 2018, 11:49:21 PM »
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The problem with that graph is that it doesn't show emissions below 300 nm, and just because the graph is flat at 300 doesn't mean it stays that way, depending on the particular source.  Although UVC (100 - 290 nm) from the sun is normally filtered out by the ozone layer, that doesn't apply to artificial sources.

Because it is a graph of a white LED which uses a blue LED die as a light source. There will be no emissions below 300nm from that LED die.  There is no reason then to show that part of the graph.
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mark.hinds

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Re: A Tension Dephasit Layout Project
« Reply #51 on: March 26, 2018, 11:50:58 PM »
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Because it is a graph of a white LED which uses a blue LED die as a light source. There will be no emissions below 300nm from that LED die.  There is no reason then to show that part of the graph.

How do we know that?  Note that I edited my previous post, unfortunately after you replied to it.  Check out that link. 

BTW, we are contaminating Lashedup's layout thread ...
« Last Edit: March 26, 2018, 11:52:40 PM by mark.hinds »

peteski

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Re: A Tension Dephasit Layout Project
« Reply #52 on: March 27, 2018, 12:10:09 AM »
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How do we know that?  Note that I edited my previous post, unfortunately after you replied to it.  Check out that link. 

BTW, we are contaminating Lashedup's layout thread ...

Well, if all we read on the Interwebs is true (and yes, they do have a big axe to grind), then I sit corrected.  But I would still like to see some additional material showing that blue LEDs also emit as much of UV energy as they do for their primary wavelength.

Like you said, this is OT (which is typical for this forum), so we better stop.  :)
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lashedup

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Re: A Tension Dephasit Layout Project
« Reply #53 on: March 27, 2018, 11:10:59 AM »
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Thread drift is totally fine with me.  Some light reading...

https://electronics.stackexchange.com/questions/290187/do-cool-white-leds-emit-uv-light

peteski

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Re: A Tension Dephasit Layout Project
« Reply #54 on: March 27, 2018, 04:01:07 PM »
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Thread drift is totally fine with me.  Some light reading...

https://electronics.stackexchange.com/questions/290187/do-cool-white-leds-emit-uv-light

I guess that with the layout's railroad name you picked you fully expect multiple thread drifts!  Look, a squirrel!   :D

Just like with everything on the Interwebs, the above info shows almost opposite opinion from the NOUVIR site (which we do know has an important stake in the game of discrediting LED lighting).  Thanks for the link - this info is more in line with my line of thought:  Blue-die based white LEDs emit very little (of any) UV light, but plenty of blue light).

While UV-die based white LEDs apparently do exist, I have never encountered one in my LED purchasing experience.  One of the posts made a valid point about that: The doping required to get an LED to emit UV is considerably more expensive than the doping needed for visible light. You can buy a UV LED, but no manufacturers, not even the cheap ones, would include it in an LED product unnecessarily.

That makes me wonder of the white LED tested by NOUVIR people was actually one of those UV-die based LEDs?

This is all very educational - thanks!
« Last Edit: March 27, 2018, 04:02:51 PM by peteski »
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DKS

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Re: A Tension Dephasit Layout Project
« Reply #55 on: March 27, 2018, 04:45:10 PM »
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I suppose, then, that one must clarify and say, "near-UV" instead of just plain "UV" with respect to some "white" LEDs. But then there's anecdotal experience, such as one I had at a friend's home where he had some cheap white LED strip lights, and I noticed a printed graphic nearby that had some fluorescent inks in it lit up like someone was shining a "black light" ("true" UV) on it, when it didn't do so under normal room (tungsten) lighting. And it would be valuable (if someone hasn't done so already) to look at the behavior of various digital cameras under various "white" LED lighting conditions. I know I've been noticing some subtly odd color rendition myself.

 
 
« Last Edit: March 27, 2018, 04:55:31 PM by David K. Smith »

peteski

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Re: A Tension Dephasit Layout Project
« Reply #56 on: March 27, 2018, 04:58:55 PM »
+1
I suppose, then, that one must clarify and say, "near-UV" instead of just plain "UV" with respect to some "white" LEDs. But then there's anecdotal experience, such as one I had at a friend's home where he had some cheap white LED strip lights, and I noticed a printed graphic nearby that had some fluorescent inks in it lit up like someone was shining a "black light" ("true" UV) on it, when it didn't do so under normal room (tungsten) lighting. And it would be valuable (if someone hasn't done so already) to look at the behavior of various digital cameras under various "white" LED lighting conditions. I know I've been noticing some subtly odd color rendition myself...

There is no question that the white LEDs which use blue LED have peak emission in the blue region (multiple graphs in the links posted earlier show that). That blue wavelength is often in the range of exciting emission in many fluorescent objects.  But it is not in a true UV wavelength range.

As far as color rendition goes in photos, most cheap white LEDs have a low CRI. It is because the apparent white light consists of the large peak of blue and then another gentle hump in the yellow region.  Like it is shown in the graph I posted few posts earlier.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2018, 05:03:16 PM by peteski »
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lashedup

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Re: A Tension Dephasit Layout Project
« Reply #57 on: April 03, 2018, 01:55:40 PM »
+1
Took a break last week and spent Spring Break with the family in warmer climates. Came back to the Chicago area still in the grips of crappy winter weather. Oh well, back to the basement…

Masonite is going up on the scenic sub for the backdrop. I have two areas that require a little more thought to work out. One is the Gaynor Trestle/Nason Creek area where the backdrop needs to drop down to the creek level and the other is the fairly sharp curve the masonite backdrop needs to make where trains enter the Cascade Tunnel (light blue line on the right side):





The first thing is to sort out where to maximize the use of the 8 foot long sheets. The obvious part is that I wanted a full sheet on the right-hand side where I needed it to curve at an angle behind the Cascade Tunnel. First though I needed to figure out how much material I needed for the curved section. I also wanted to try and visualize what amount of bend would look right (and how far I can push the material!). I was also looking to ideally anchor this to the ceiling joist as well since bending masonite puts a fair amount of pressure on the supports. So I clamped up some material to take a look:



Once I was satisfied with how things looked, I measured the amount of material that hangs past the last vertical supports and marked off the 8 foot mark at the end of the sheet. Next, I knew I also needed a full 8 foot length for the backdrop behind the bridge/creek scene. I was trying to avoid having seams in this location in case of any cracking due to expansion or contraction. I marked out eight feet for the bridge scene and started taking measurements to cut that board. Measure twice, cut once is the old saying. That has come back to bite me a few times in the past, so I measured three times for this piece and started cutting:



Space around the basement is taking on a hoarder-like appearance as I’m keeping a lot of scraps of foam and wood around for landforms and miscellaneous use down the road. While its driving me a little crazy, things should improve quite a bit over time – we’ll see!

So the first piece to go up is the curved section behind the Cascade Tunnel portal. I clamped up a piece of masonite to get an idea of where the front valance would curve and the angles I’d need.



Since this will be a tunnel access point under the layout, I also needed to think about the ability to reach up into the tunnel to grab anything that might derail. Now that I have the backdrop curve sorted out I can finish the framing underneath just to brace things up a little more. Here is the reverse angle:



And an overall shot of this area:



I countersunk the screws and then went over everything with lightweight spackle. This particular spackle goes on pink in color and dries white which helps give you an idea of when it is dry. Plus this is a “low dust” spackle (ha!) but I have to say, this was less messy than most compounds. I still sand it with a shop vac in one hand and a sanding block in the other. Spackle compound just gets into everything.

And here is the overall view of the backdrop in place:



In the end I had a roughly 10 inch section in the middle that I needed to cut in. This works out nicely as it is the area right behind the Gaynor Tunnel which will mostly be covered by a mountain anyway.

The next step is paint colors. If you remember from the last update, I did some testing of the temperature adjustable white LED lights I plan to use with a variety of paint samples:



I had a feeling that choosing a blue shade was going to be a headache for me. The two main purposes of this scenic part of the layout is to take photos and some video. I also want it to look like a sky in the background for operators as well.  Most of the long-time model railroad stalwarts in this hobby will tell you to just pick something relatively light and don’t overthink it. If you have some talent, you can paint clouds and other things on the backdrop as well, but my plan is to use photo backdrops for background details and I’ll leave the clouds out of the equation. For photos I can always add the backgrounds I want or need. Lance Mindheim has done a great job with this, especially when you consider quite a bit of his layout has no backdrops or very minimal backdrops. So back to the discussion about a base color…

Standing in the paint isle at your local paint store/big box store and looking at all the shades of blue can be a bit overwhelming. In my mind I was thinking I would try and avoid blues with too much red (making them lean purple). In my mind I’m thinking that more “neutral” blues would be better overall. So I picked five different color cards that looked like they had potential. I was also leaning more towards the lightest colors at the top of the cards. In Home Depot’s lighting things looked pretty good. Once I got them under the LED lights though things looked different as you can see above. I am leaning more towards lighting that is closer to incandescent/warm light. That means the blue starts to turn a bit more grey or neutral. Plus you can see shades of purple creeping in above.

Good news is that this narrowed down my choices quite a bit and I ended up rolling the dice on a card labeled Behr M520A with the following colors on it: Vaporize (lightest), After Rain (middle tone) and Charismatic Sky (darkest). I decided to buy three samples of the paint in each shade. After painting a few test areas, I ended up going with the darker Charismatic Sky. The lighter colors were going grey (or even yellow) on me in the warmer LED lights and just didn’t look blue anymore. To drive this point home, here is a photo that shows what the exact same color looks like under different warm and cool shades of white:



Yes, that is the exact same base shade of blue in each panel. The base color can be seen in the second “Neutral +1 Warm” panel at the bottom. It is the lightest of the colors. I won’t likely use the full “warm” or full “cool” settings of the white LED’s so that brings us to the middle two. I need the color of the blue to look right, but also need the scenery colors to look right too. If you look at the lumber framing at the bottom you can see that the +1 Warm brings out a richer more natural looking color of the wood. Neutral isn’t bad either, but it has a bit more blue in it which washes the wood color out a bit. Either way, I wanted something closer to the middle panels. So I ended up painting samples of all three colors and surprisingly ended up with the darkest blue to bring more contrast in and ensure that it stays more in the blue sky spectrum under the layout lights. This is all admittedly crazy detail work, but it was also educational and fun to sort out. Here is a quick and dirty look at the backdrop painted under the white LED lights in a neutral +1 warm shade. I just taped a section of LED lights to a board and held it up to get this photo, so the final lighting should be more even.





Next update as you can see above will be putting down cork and laying track. Also making progress on Cajon Pass section...

- jamie

lashedup

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Re: A Tension Dephasit Layout Project
« Reply #58 on: April 04, 2018, 11:02:46 AM »
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Alright so I got a text from Skibbe last night and he "suggested" that I need to look at my sky color again.    :facepalm:   :D

He pointed out that in mountain country a blue sky is often this color:



and



Mike Danneman nailed this down really well on his Moffat Road N scale layout...




I admit I had the same thought early on, but was concerned that going too dark would potentially give me issues trying to take sunset/sunrise shots with low light as the sky would go dark. I think I'm going to do a test section and see, but what are everyone's thoughts?

Cajonpassfan

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Re: A Tension Dephasit Layout Project
« Reply #59 on: April 04, 2018, 08:06:01 PM »
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Well, if your Cascade tunnel is right up the track from Sullivan's curve, the sky has to work for both. A lot of. It depends on photo angles; up shots tend to be bluer, with less "atmosphere" visible. I'd go with the bluer option in your settings...but it's all very subjective. Go for what appeals to you
Otto K.