TCS Decoders' "Like a Rocket Ship".

[Nato]

                   :|I received my KATO TCS decoder equipped Milwaukee FP-7's and booster. I have several other KATO TCS locomotives  (sound equipped Amquack / trak Cowell units) on my DC layout these locomotives run at a nice controllable speed, of course they were purchased to use on the DCC Wasatch N Scale layout at shows as were the new Milwaukee Locomotives. These units are the first DCC locomotive's I have encountered that when using DC have only one speed "Warp!" they run like a rocket ship. Good thing is I will only be using them on a DCC layout and that I also ordered three of these locomotives in straight DC to pull my "Lowa Watha" train at home. Nate Goodman (Nato).   

[C855B]

Could be an installation error - double check that the motor is isolated from the frame. This problem is symptomatic of a short somewhere. If you bought it "factory installed", well, the factory makes mistakes, too.

[peteski]

  I have encountered that when using DC have only one speed "Warp!" they run like a rocket ship.

Could you expand on this a bit?  Since in DC you control the speed with the speed control know, you can start off with a very low voltage.  Can you explain what happens exactly?

What throttle are you using?
Do you know what model decoder is in that loco?
Is it that you keep increasing the track voltage and the loco is not moving until the speed knob is near the maximum speed (and voltage) and then the loco takes off at full speed?
Is the direction controllable, or it goes in one direction regardless of the DC throttle's direction setting?

[Nato]

                Peteski, what happens is when you turn the throttle on and you get to what would be a normal starting speed with other duel mode decoder locomotives, the headlights flash on and off rapidly, turning the throttle knob faster results in no response until you get to almost full speed then the headlights come on and the locomotives takes off like a bat out of H. Same effect in reverse or with B units except you of course get no flashing lights. I know other sound equipped locomotives require a slightly higher starting voltage, but they do not start at warp speed and my other no sound DCC Duel Mode decoder locomotives start up at a fairly reasonable speed and are controllable. Even my KATO TCS with sound Amtrak locomotives do not do what these three are doing. Nate Goodman (Nato). 

[peteski]

                Peteski, what happens is when you turn the throttle on and you get to what would be a normal starting speed with other duel mode decoder locomotives, the headlights flash on and off rapidly, turning the throttle knob faster results in no response until you get to almost full speed then the headlights come on and the locomotives takes off like a bat out of H. Same effect in reverse or with B units except you of course get no flashing lights. I know other sound equipped locomotives require a slightly higher starting voltage, but they do not start at warp speed and my other no sound DCC Duel Mode decoder locomotives start up at a fairly reasonable speed and are controllable. Even my KATO TCS with sound Amtrak locomotives do not do what these three are doing. Nate Goodman (Nato). 

You didn't answer a question in my last post: What brand/model DC throttle/power-pack do you use? 

Also , are you sure those are TCS decoders?  I'm asking because TCS doesn't make any small sound decoders, and if the decoder was installed by Kato, they use ESU, not TCS decoders.

And you also have me confused as to whether they are sound or non-sound decoders? 

Regardless, especially if they work ok on DCC, judging by the behavior you mention I would suspect that your DC throttle is not compatible with those decoders for some reason.
If you have a fresh 9V battery put the loco on a piece of track, touch the battery's terminals to the track and see how the loco behaves (headlight, motor and direction).

[Nato]

                   Peteski , The throttle system on my home layout is CVP Wireless DC with a hand held walk around throttle for each separate track line. Sorry, it was late last night and I somehow overlooked your request for throttle information. The power supply is CVP as are the electronics boards and the transmitter. No old style power packs used here, only a system that is no longer supported by CVP as everything goes to DCC. The decoder KATO has used is a TCS 1333 KOD8-B . Nate Goodman (Nato). 

[Greg Elmassian]

PWM power on "DC" layout confuses DCC decoder?

Greg

(no TCS sound decoders that size)

[C855B]

PWM power on "DC" layout confuses DCC decoder? ...

That, too. The square-wave pulses of PWM might be "interpreted" by the decoder as a DCC signal and it's standing by for a command in the "data" stream. Only until the DC throttle is set to a high enough setting to be mostly pure DC will it then figure out "Oh, it's DC!"

You've introduced an unusual variable into diagnosis with the CVP throttle. Let's eliminate that first. Borrow a more conventional power pack and try that before tearing your and our hair out any further.

[Nato]

    Going Further will either to take the Lokies to a Friends' Bob Gerald's Milwaukee Road Layout to an OP session this month layout is pure DCC and test them also put on a programing track, or take them to the Wasatch N Scale layout http://www.wasatchnscale.org when we have it set up at the annual January Thanksgiving Point Train show when we are set up and test them then, run on Default 3 and put on a programing track. Yes I have a very old MRC Tech II power pack that I haven't used in years that I could hook up, however since all the other DCC locomotives I own, some with sound BWL , Bachmann, Athearn , early Athearn with RC Remote, Kato Kobo, and some KATO's with Didja Quacks self installed run ok on my DC Pike I' am not overly concerned. If there is a fault they will go back to KATO. Nate Goodman (Nato). No I normally do not run my DCC locomotives a lot on my DC layout even with duel mode decoders, I have plenty of DC locomotives to use . Plan is to convert layout to DCC probably NCE our club uses, but able to flip  a switch to go back to DC if wanted.

[peteski]

You've introduced an unusual variable into diagnosis with the CVP throttle. Let's eliminate that first. Borrow a more conventional power pack and try that before tearing your and our hair out any further.

Exactly. That's why I asked for more info on the throttle, and to try the good-old 9V battery test.  But Nate seems to be marching to his own quacky drum beat (and I say this in a loving manner). 

Now that I look at this thread again, I think that he just wanted to inform others about the problem, rather than looking for troubleshooting assistance, or for a solution.

[Nato]

                  Yes , one of the reasons I started this thread was to alert others incase they had this problem.I don't think most buyers of the DCC locomotives will be running them on DC. Thanks everyone for your good (no excellent) advice. However as has been said in going my own way it just seemed more logical to test these locomotives out in the real world enviornment where they will usually be used  on DCC layouts' If they do not work there on Factory Default 3 or with settings adjusted then I will know something is wrong with the locos or their TCS decoders. Yes I know there may be a issues with my DC system and the decoders. If they work ok on DCC as intended then I would test them in DC again to see if adjustments if any made a difference just to satisfy my self. If I want to run my train now I do have my DC locomotives,but again thanks everyone. I hope this closes out this thread.                          Nate Goodman (Nato).   

[peteski]

                  Yes , one of the reasons I started this thread was to alert others incase they had this problem.I don't think most buyers of the DCC locomotives will be running them on DC. Thanks everyone for your good (no excellent) advice. However as has been said in going my own way it just seemed more logical to test these locomotives out in the real world enviornment where they will usually be used  on DCC layouts' If they do not work there on Factory Default 3 or with settings adjusted then I will know something is wrong with the locos or their TCS decoders. Yes I know there may be a issues with my DC system and the decoders. If they work ok on DCC as intended then I would test them in DC again to see if adjustments if any made a difference just to satisfy my self. If I want to run my train now I do have my DC locomotives,but again thanks everyone. I hope this closes out this thread.                          Nate Goodman (Nato).   

Nate, are you sure those are TCS and not ESU decoders?!

As I understand it, Kato uses ESU decoders in their in-house installations.  Since you are warning modelers about a possible issue with the decoder, it would  make sense to call out the correct manufacturer.

[Jbub]

TCS is used in non sound installs from kobo. Esu is for the sound installs

[peteski]

TCS is used in non sound installs from kobo. Esu is for the sound installs

Thank you for the clarification.

Too bad that Kato doesn't stick to a single brand of decoders.

[Greg Elmassian]

so the title of this topic should really be: "don't run a DCC decoder on PWM DC?" That is indeed a good thing to tell newcomers who purchase DCC equipped locos.

TCS may be unfairly "accused" here.

Greg