Keystone Details announces Arched Style repl. roofs for various MT Pass. Cars

[Maletrain]

In response to the question about windows that would be concurrent with "turtle" roofs of "betterment" (or similar, railroad-shopped) cars:

At least on the B&O, the "turtle" roofs were typically applied and the cars used in service long before the flush "Thermopane" windows were applied to "modernize" those cars.  There are plenty of pictures in books about B&O passenger service that show standard heavyweight coaches, built in the 1920s, betting "turtle" roofs about 1940, and being operated into the 1950s before getting Thermopane windows.   That applies to coaches, diners, sleepers, lounges and observation cars.

So, what roof you should have and what windows you should have depends on when as well as what you are trying to model.

[Lemosteam]

Well, based on @Maletrain  comments, I can make a wide and narrow version, one for the MT heavyweight roof and one for a layered side width (for Chris's etch, and one for an the standard MT width car.

I just have to make sure that this does not quickly become un-containable.

@Cajonpassfan , that last shot looks like something caught on fire inside?

[thomasjmdavis]

I would draw up the etched sides for the coaches I wanted. I figured I could use paired window coaches for the core since the are fairly cheap. Maybe I should buy one first to see what all needs done.

Chris, assuming you are still talking about Erie modernized coaches, can we place pre-orders to influence you to put that on the front burner? I could send you a MT paired window coach if that would help get the project started.

[Chris333]

Well lets give it some time I just ordered a car now.

For me the MTL paired window coach looks like the overall window holes would line up perfectly for this:


When I get the car I will print out this photo to the size of the MTL car and go from there.

[Maletrain]

The B&O had some modernized coaches with paired windows joined together like that phhoto of the Erie coach, but the roofs were typically either "turtle" types that were straight to the ends (so they were noticeably about 6" higher than lightweight car roofs), or they had had been completely rebuilt to the lower height, and basically were regular lightweight car roofs.  Windows were a little more complicated than the Erie coach pictured, and the steps had been replaced with fold-ups.  So, my take on modeling those coaches is to start with the Rivarossi version, where there are already no steps, instead of the MTL cars. 
"Streamstyled" sleepers with fold-up steps could be done the same way for the same reason.

On the other hand, modernized B&O coaches that still had the individual paired windows seem to have had balloon roofs and the original steps, so more easily bashed from MTL cars. 

B&O modernized diners had no steps, of course, and typically had "turtle" roofs, but some had the thermopane windows while they still had original clerstory roofs.

As Jerry previously posted, there were not only a lot of diffrences between RRs, there was a lot of variability within each road's passenger equipment.  So, the more roof types we can get for the available car bodies, the closer each of us can get to modeling what our chosen prototypes actually had.

[Chris333]

My MTL coach is already here 

It looks like the first few Erie cars had flush end (like the photo above, #1000 was the first one), but others have ends that have a square roof causing an overhang at the corners. This would make things easier. You can see the corner over hang here:
http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/el/pax/el-co1010jpa.jpg
http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/el/pax/el-c1015aps.jpg
http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/el/pax/erie-co1917jpa.jpg

This is a diner, but shows the roof:

Straight across.

[jmlaboda]

It looks like the first few Erie cars had flush end (like the photo above, #1000 was the first one), but others have ends that have a square roof causing an overhang at the corners.

Some roads rebuilt the ends of the cars so that they would be flat, providing for a match for the end of the squared roof and side... this can be seen in some Union Pacific car photos...

http://rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=2175058
http://rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=1240321
http://rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=3199828
https://www.flickr.com/photos/23711298@N07/14114244549
https://www.flickr.com/photos/jojopuppyfish/976787682

Others (like Erie which already has been mentioned) used square ends...
http://rr-fallenflags.org/el/pax/erie-di939abd.jpg
http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/erie1024.jpg

Tapered ends were preferred by MoPac and some others (including Pullman)...
http://rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=1866176
http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/mp10303.jpg
http://digital.denverlibrary.org/cdm/fullbrowser/collection/p15330coll22/id/43982/rv/singleitem
http://digitalcollections.smu.edu/cdm/fullbrowser/collection/rwy/id/1321/rv/singleitem
http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/trmspb_joaquin_miller0.jpg

These are all things to consider when choosing to do "Betterment" roofs...

[Lemosteam]

I am asking that all further discussion on the betterment/turtle roofs take place here, if you would be so kind:

https://www.therailwire.net/forum/index.php?topic=43391.0

[Cajonpassfan]

Well, my "new and improved" MT diner Harriman roof came today from Shapeways, actually TWO of them, and they are a perfect fit. Thank you John! (The original one came shrunk by Shapeways, no fault of Keystone, claim made, money refunded, and two new, properly sized roofs arrived in today's mail, no charge
So I'm feeling a bit guilty... I should at least pay for the one roof I  ordered and need, right?
Otto K.

[Lemosteam]

Nope!   

[Ngineer]

Is there a timeline when the PRR cars (and the other cars) were changed from clerestory roofs to arched style roofs?

I know that some PRR coaches were modernized.

Didn't Hell Gate Models offer some of the new roofs? Or was it another company? PRR-Parts with the arch roof?

I didn't buy the PRR 70' Heavyweight Express BaggageCar (MicroTrains) because I read that it isn't prototypical. Is it prototypical after adding the arch style roof? Or any of the other 70' Heavyweight Express BaggageCars?

   Javier

[CodyO]

Is there a timeline when the PRR cars (and the other cars) were changed from clerestory roofs to arched style roofs?

I know that some PRR coaches were modernized.

Didn't Hell Gate Models offer some of the new roofs? Or was it another company? PRR-Parts with the arch roof?

I didn't buy the PRR 70' Heavyweight Express BaggageCar (MicroTrains) because I read that it isn't prototypical. Is it prototypical after adding the arch style roof? Or any of the other 70' Heavyweight Express BaggageCars?

   Javier

Mostly post-war

PRR-Parts offers the arch roof, though its made for the Lima P70
http://www.prr-parts.com/Page2.html

The 70' is still not prototypical with the arch roof.

[Lemosteam]

The 70' is still not prototypical with the arch roof.

The ONLY reason the Pennsy 70' baggage car is shown above is because that is what I designed the roof to fit to.  I don't have any other cars but that one.

So my intention was not to indicate that the roof was proto for the PRR, just that an arch roof is available for the MT 70' baggage car.

[thomasjmdavis]

The MT baggage is based on an Erie heavyweight baggage car, but is similar to baggage cars on many other roads.  An arch roof is also prototypical for the Erie car, as they had cars with both clerestory and arched roofs, that were otherwise virtually identical. 

Fortunately or unfortunately, there is no "USRA baggage car" or "ARA coach"- very few standardized designs- so we modelers generally have to make do with a fair number of stand in models unless we are willing to scratchbuild or kitbash, seek out rare kits, or buy brass- and even then only a small fraction of prototypes are available in N.

The various small manufacturers who make detail parts, car sides, kits for this and that prototype do us a great service.  While a given part or kit may not always make a given model "prototypical" they can go a long way toward providing the key "spotting features" that make something "look Pennsy" or "look Monon" or "look your favorite railroad" plus adding "prototypical" variation to trains so that not everything looks like the same set out of the box.

When I modeled my first N scale heavyweight passenger train 40 years ago, what we had to choose from were 6 Rivarossi cars, 2 Minitrix cars, 2 Bachmann shortie cars, and a few wood/metal kits for 1905 era wood cars (described as "more difficult than scratchbuilding" by the few modelers who ever finished one).  Being able to buy several styles of baggage cars off the shelf and having recently ordered precision made kits for Stillwell commuter coaches, this is heaven by comparison.

[Ngineer]

@All

Thank you for your help.

I have the Erie baggage car, but have to figure out a way to remove "American Railway Express" and find the correct MicroScale decals for "Railway Express Agency".

   Javier