how many sound decoders required in an A -B-A set

[peteski]

whoops meant to type woodone      autocorrect flips it to wooden     sorry about that its too early in the morning here.

You should be able to go back and simply edit the mistake in your post. Post editing has been re-enabled.

[woodone]

hey wooden,  you are not really hijacking this thread.    I for one have learned a lot from this.  Based on the feedback i have gotten the plan is to  put lock sound micro's in the A units and a Pilot micro in the b unit.       I am very interested on what you find out in programming your set up.    it will help me a ton.     Hopefully soon i will have some pictures soon on what I have done so far..

OK so long has you are OK with this I will add to what I have found or not found so far.
Like I said the Lok Pilot Nano Std. has the start delay feature so this is why I went that way. BTW this is a very small decoder and it is new. Released in Sept. I believe. Any way I have not had too much luck so far. Has a mater of fact, I gave up. I now have both decoders set so there is no start delay. I felt that I can control the start by increasing the throttle very slowly and live the sounds lagging a bit. With the start delay on, the stopping of the AB units together was bothersome. The B stopped and A unit keeps running and spinning it's wheels and then you hear brake squeal. Very unreal (IMO).  I am hoping that Matt Herman can help me out on Monday. If not these very well could end up in the trash.
With little or no support I will move to a  sound decoder and a match for the B that I can work with. I have to get these home to its owner before Thanksgiving. Wish me luck. And the wooden is NO problem, I think that all know to whom you were referring. LOL

[RBrodzinsky]

OK so long has you are OK with this I will add to what I have found or not found so far.
Like I said the Lok Pilot Nano Std. has the start delay feature so this is why I went that way. BTW this is a very small decoder and it is new. Released in Sept. I believe. Any way I have not had too much luck so far. Has a mater of fact, I gave up. I now have both decoders set so there is no start delay. I felt that I can control the start by increasing the throttle very slowly and live the sounds lagging a bit. With the start delay on, the stopping of the AB units together was bothersome. The B stopped and A unit keeps running and spinning it's wheels and then you hear brake squeal. Very unreal (IMO).  I am hoping that Matt Herman can help me out on Monday. If not these very well could end up in the trash.
With little or no support I will move to a  sound decoder and a match for the B that I can work with. I have to get these home to its owner before Thanksgiving. Wish me luck. And the wooden is NO problem, I think that all know to whom you were referring. LOL

I'm going to put a Nano on the LokTester, today, to see if I can duplicate the behavior.  Will report later.   I know that the LokPilot Micro does not do this, as I have used them in most of my B units with 100% success on matching acceleration/deceleration and start-up delays. Why I still wonder if the Nano has a firmware issue.

My plan for the Nano decoders, since they are still V1 based, not V4, is only to use in very small stand-alone units (such as Moguls, etc).

[RBrodzinsky]

Well that was easy!   I can completely confirm the problem.  When Virtual Drive Sound is on, the Deceleration is disabled (and possibly acceleration)

Connected Nano to LokTester, connected to LokProgrammer. The LokProgrammer updated the firmware in the decoder, I set Accel and Decel to 50; sound delay to 2 seconds, and F8-On to turn on Virtual Sound.  With F8 off, no delay in starting, but nice acceleration and deceleration; with F8 on, the two second delay, but motor came up to speed more quickly, and when moved to speed step 0, stopped immediately (just flywheel momentum).

[woodone]

Thanks Rick.
If you have had luck when using the Micro to run with the LokSound sound units how did you set up CV's3 & 4 ?  And how did you get the Micro to start delay?
If that is possible,  could I not repeat that with the Nano STD?

[RBrodzinsky]

Thanks Rick.
If you have had luck when using the Micro to run with the LokSound sound units how did you set up CV's3 & 4 ?  And how did you get the Micro to start delay?
If that is possible,  could I not repeat that with the Nano STD?

I set the CVs for Accel/Decel exactly the same in the LokPilot Micro and LokSound Micro (Select or V4).  The Micro has the same start delay logic setting as you found in the Nano. You implement the virtual sound function (on F8) and set the delay timer.

The key is that the LokPilot Micro is a V4 decoder. Uses different hardware and firmware than the LokPilot Nano, which is a V1.   The V4 implements all the same functionality (except sound) as the LokSounds, including FullThrottle.  You can even tell it to "come to an immediate halt if throttle at 0".    And typing that just made me think about "what happens if throttle goes to 1, not 0".    Test following immediately....

[RBrodzinsky]

THAT'S IT!   Deceleration, with start up sound delay, works perfectly if you go down to speed step 1.  But, the "stop immediately on speed step 0" (in other words, treat SS0 as "emergency stop") seems to get implemented in the Nano by turning on virtual sound delay.  However, in the V4 decoders, there is a bit (6) in CV 245 that controls that function.   So, one solution is to turn that bit on in your LokSound decoder, and then it will act the same as the Nano.

However, this is just a band-aid over a real issue.   Virtual Sound delay should not impact this behavior

[woodone]

THAT'S IT!   Deceleration, with start up sound delay, works perfectly hi if you go down to speed step 1.  But, the "stop immediately on speed step 0" (in other words, treat SS0 as "emergency stop") seems to get implemented in the Nano by turning on virtual sound delay.  However, in the V4 decoders, there is a bit (6) in CV 245 that controls that function.   So, one solution is to turn that bit on in your LokSound decoder, and then it will act the same as the Nano.

However, this is just a band-aid over a real issue.   Virtual Sound delay should not impact this behavior

OK, you have the Nano working with an Sound decoder, right? So which decoder are you setting the CV or CV’ s in?  I am guessing SS0. Is speed step, correct? Sure glad you are working on this, I was looking for an error on my end programming. THANKS

[RBrodzinsky]

I just did the Nano on the LokTester.  Not installed into anything.  On the LokSound, if you set bit 6 of CV245, that will implement the "immediate stop" logic.  The Nano doesn't have that CV implemented.  Yes; SS0 is Speed Step 0.

I also posted the issue on the LokSound Yahoo group, since I know Matt follows it.

[woodone]

I am lost! A DCC installer not a computer geek.  LOL   So with the pilot you use speed steps and not CV's 2,5 and 6 ?
Sorry I am so dense. So do I work with the Sound decoder or the pilot?
Thanks

[RBrodzinsky]

Well, I prefer using the speed tables vs CV 2, 5 & 6, but a speed STEP is simply the throttle setting; either 0-28 or 0-128. Speed Step 0 is “stop” and 128 (or 28) is Vmax. For any ESU decoder, I believe Speed Step 1 is the value in CV2.

To make the LokSound decoder act the same way as the LokPilot Nano, use the LokProgrammer on the LokSound, go to the Driving Characteristics tab, and at the bottom is a section called Stop Behavior (just under the Starting Delay section). It has one check box: “Stop immediately on speed step 0 [CV245,6]”

For a LokPilot Micro, setting everything up is identical as with a LokSound, rather than this strange workaround with the Nano.

[peteski]

Well, I prefer using the speed tables vs CV 2, 5 & 6, but a speed STEP is simply the throttle setting; either 0-28 or 0-128. Speed Step 0 is “stop” and 128 (or 28) is Vmax. For any ESU decoder, I believe Speed Step 1 is the value in CV2.

I think you mean that CV2 contains the value of the voltage sent to the motor when the DCC throttle controlling the loco dialed up to speed step 1.  That is a standard functionality of CV2 (for any brand decoder that utilizes CV2).

[woodone]

I have the Pilot set to use the CV ‘s 2, 5 and 6. Default for CV 2 is 3. I don’t recall right now what is in the Sound decoder for CV’s 2, 5 and 6. Going to be working on that this AM.

[RBrodzinsky]

I think you mean that CV2 contains the value of the voltage sent to the motor when the DCC throttle controlling the loco dialed up to speed step 1.  That is a standard functionality of CV2 (for any brand decoder that utilizes CV2).

Well, technically, it is a scalar value which tells the decoder the fraction (value/255) for the pulse width of the rectified voltage to send to motor ...   

The key difference on ESU vs most other brands is that CV2 (Vstart) and CV5(V max) are ALWAYS used, even if the Speed Table is turned on; the table is just the ramp to follow between those two points.  Most other brands ignore those if the Speed Table is selected, using the Speed Table end points (and KickStart).

[RBrodzinsky]

I have the Pilot set to use the CV ‘s 2, 5 and 6. Default for CV 2 is 3. I don’t recall right now what is in the Sound decoder for CV’s 2, 5 and 6. Going to be working on that this AM.

Just note - adjusting these CVs is really for Speed Matching, and has nothing to do with acceleration, deceleration, start delays or stopping behavior.