Walther's selling tooling

[asarge]

Back in 2013 at the NTS in Atlanta, I had quite an unpleasant conversation with Zack Thompson, I tried to suggest possible structures and re-purposing other n scale structures for different but all he did was pontificate against N scale in general for about 5 minutes. He even told me how many Greeneville Hoppers were laying around that they couldn't get rid. After letting him rip into me for awhile he then calmed down and listened. I kept quiet at the time as I was with Trainmaster Models. But now, I have no affiliation on the retail side so I can say what I want and it's no surprise they are dumping the passenger car tooling, it wasn't a big mover for them. I sure hope someone buys the old LL tooling they got because I seriously doubt they will do anything with it. Still have some slim hope for some of the freight cars.

[mmagliaro]

I have very high hopes for this.  Lowell is a good guy who makes quality products that he personally loves.

Walthers really should let go of the N Scale steam they are sitting on as well.  The 0-8-0, 2-8-4, and 2-8-8-2 would be truly spectacular N Scale offerings with some minor updates.

[thomasjmdavis]

I had a brief conversation with a Walthers rep at a large train show, asking at the time if we could expect a diner, and if so, which one.  He came back that he did not expect any more N scale passenger cars, "even the Santa Fe cars did not sell well."

Of course they did not. a) none were ATSF prototype- the coach wasn't even close, b) Kato made prototypically correct 10-6s for both Palm and (with some mods to the skirts) Pine series, b) not sure if the Con Cor ATSF chair was out yet, but the other CC and Kato Budd coaches were all closer to ATSF coaches, c) the baggage car was sorta-kinda close to a 70' "economy" baggage car of the late 50s, but again the Kato cars included a baggage that was right on, and another (CB&Q prototype) that was close, d) the Kato cars were readily available on the secondary market at $15 less than Walthers MSRP.  Apparently the sales staff was blissfully unaware that the container load of Kato stuff that had sold in a matter of weeks a couple years ealier were all sets of Super Chief cars, and the container sitting at their dock at the time of the show was the second or third run arrived just in time for Christmas.

Experience would indicate that if you want to sell foobies, you need an observation car.  I don't get it, but apparently many. many modelers, collectors and buyers of train sets are convinced that the observation car is required on every train- like a caboose on a freight.  Con Cor makes 4 observations, NOT counting the ones in the UP and CBQ articulated trains.  Kato makes one for almost every name train- I am half surprised Kato did not put one on the El Cap.

I just hope (a) that Lowell Smith expands the line a bit- adding a diner and some additional sleepers; (b) lets us buy undec cars or better yet, kits (ala MT, although they don't call them kits, they are unassembled), (c) while of course he may do some wondrous things in his paint shop, it would be nice to be able to buy a standard NYC or PRR sleeper at a reasonable price- so hoping he sees this line as competing with Kato and MT, not with brass and custom painted cars.

[jdcolombo]

I have very high hopes for this.  Lowell is a good guy who makes quality products that he personally loves.

Walthers really should let go of the N Scale steam they are sitting on as well.  The 0-8-0, 2-8-4, and 2-8-8-2 would be truly spectacular N Scale offerings with some minor updates.

Amen.

I'm not sure the 0-8-0 and 2-8-8-2 even need much in the way of updating.  Both were DCC-ready, and the 2-8-8-2 came with sound (probably would need a new sound decoder supplier; I nominate ESU, because my 2-8-8-2 with a LokSound sounds wonderful and runs like a Swiss watch).  The first run of 0-8-0's had some issues with mechanism smoothness, but my understanding is that these were cured in the second run.

The Berk, however, would need some work.  Traction tires on the 4th driver set is a necessity for it to pull a decent-sized consist; and the chassis would need updating for DCC.  Plus the trucks on the tender should be switched out for the "needle axle in cup" pickup design that provides much better electrical conductivity (the Bachmann Berkshire's mechanism pretty much sucks, but the tender is a wonder - rock solid electrical pickup from that, and I've married two of my Walthers/LL Berks to Bachmann tenders after giving up on ever making the Bachmann mechanisms work to my satisfaction).  I'd love to have a "modernized" version of the Walthers/LL Berk, which is still by far the best-running (though anemic pulling) Berk out there, but it would take more than "minor" updates IMHO.

John C.

[wcfn100]

Someone needs to blow the inch of dust off the Russell plow tooling.

Jason

[mmagliaro]

Amen.

I'm not sure the 0-8-0 and 2-8-8-2 even need much in the way of updating.  Both were DCC-ready, and the 2-8-8-2 came with sound (probably would need a new sound decoder supplier; I nominate ESU, because my 2-8-8-2 with a LokSound sounds wonderful and runs like a Swiss watch).  The first run of 0-8-0's had some issues with mechanism smoothness, but my understanding is that these were cured in the second run.

The Berk, however, would need some work.  Traction tires on the 4th driver set is a necessity for it to pull a decent-sized consist; and the chassis would need updating for DCC.  Plus the trucks on the tender should be switched out for the "needle axle in cup" pickup design that provides much better electrical conductivity (the Bachmann Berkshire's mechanism pretty much sucks, but the tender is a wonder - rock solid electrical pickup from that, and I've married two of my Walthers/LL Berks to Bachmann tenders after giving up on ever making the Bachmann mechanisms work to my satisfaction).  I'd love to have a "modernized" version of the Walthers/LL Berk, which is still by far the best-running (though anemic pulling) Berk out there, but it would take more than "minor" updates IMHO.

John C.

John,
I'm well aware of the LL Berk's shortcomings  (as you know!  ha ha).  But cone-point tender trucks and a traction tire groove in one driver set do not strike me as big updates to make.   Making it DCC ready would mean a slight wiring change (routing  motor and frame wires back to the tender instead of directly tied to each other in the engine) and a circuit board in the tender to allow for a decode plug-in.   But in comparison to developing a whole engine, these really are minor things.

The 0-8-0 needs cone-point axle pickups too.  It uses the same system as the Berk and although it kinda-sorta works, it is not nearly as robust as, say, a Kato Mikado tender.

[jdcolombo]

John,
I'm well aware of the LL Berk's shortcomings  (as you know!  ha ha).  But cone-point tender trucks and a traction tire groove in one driver set do not strike me as big updates to make.   Making it DCC ready would mean a slight wiring change (routing  motor and frame wires back to the tender instead of directly tied to each other in the engine) and a circuit board in the tender to allow for a decode plug-in.   But in comparison to developing a whole engine, these really are minor things.

The 0-8-0 needs cone-point axle pickups too.  It uses the same system as the Berk and although it kinda-sorta works, it is not nearly as robust as, say, a Kato Mikado tender.

Yeah, actually, you're right - the updates aren't THAT big a deal.  Although on the Berk, they would have to actually run wires from the motor - the top motor brush is easy; the bottom one, not so much, since it was designed to contact the frame for pickup.  But doable.  And I forgot about the 0-8-0 having those same crappy tender pickups!

John

[davefoxx]

I loved that N scale Walthers 10-6 sleeper.  I lettered one C&O sleeper as the City of Fostoria, which has graced the rails of @wm3798's former WM West End Lines on his TRW passenger car special and was even a part of the M3T consist at one time.



DFF

[mmagliaro]

Yeah, actually, you're right - the updates aren't THAT big a deal.  Although on the Berk, they would have to actually run wires from the motor - the top motor brush is easy; the bottom one, not so much, since it was designed to contact the frame for pickup.  But doable.  And I forgot about the 0-8-0 having those same crappy tender pickups!

John

Absolutely correct.  But it's a heck of a lot easier to run wires while you are assembling the engine in a factory, as opposed to what you or I would have to do to get in there and add them after the fact.  The could probably get away with adding a wire and a thin insulating sheet.  I doubt they would have to add a cavity to the frame to carry the wire.

[narrowminded]

I loved that N scale Walthers 10-6 sleeper.  I lettered one C&O sleeper as the City of Fostoria, which has graced the rails of @wm3798's former WM West End Lines on his TRW passenger car special and was even a part of the M3T consist at one time.



DFF

That looks familiar.  

I haven't really looked at any of the passenger cars I have.  They are a mix of old Rivarossi cars from the various vendors and several Bachmann shorties, mostly if not all Pennsylvania .  Not even sure what all is in there but somewhere around ten of each.  I'm pretty sure that they all came from my oldest brother.  His stuff was always kept in decent shape so if there's any use for it the bones should be there. 

Because of the tight radius on so many turns on this layout I've thought of trying to put something together with the Bachmann stuff even if it is all foobed up.    I haven't been back at this long enough nor as versed in all of the detailed history to feel that I have sinned if something isn't just so.  While I am thoroughly intrigued as well as impressed with the knowledge exhibited here on all things trains I almost hope I don't learn enough to know better at the detail that many of you do.  It spares me the feelings of guilt and inferiority. 

[Mark5]

The Berk, however, would need some work.  Traction tires on the 4th driver set is a necessity for it to pull a decent-sized consist; and the chassis would need updating for DCC.  Plus the trucks on the tender should be switched out for the "needle axle in cup" pickup design that provides much better electrical conductivity (the Bachmann Berkshire's mechanism pretty much sucks, but the tender is a wonder - rock solid electrical pickup from that, and I've married two of my Walthers/LL Berks to Bachmann tenders after giving up on ever making the Bachmann mechanisms work to my satisfaction).
John C.

Damn I should'a picked up some Bachmann Berk trucks when they had em in the parts store!  I bought some LL Berk trucks back when the Berk was new thinking I would improve the pickup on my Rivarossi Y6b (still on my ponderous "to do" list) - will take another look at those trucks before modifying them for the Y6b ...

Mark

[ljudice]

The Greenville cars would be nice to see again, too....

[JoeD]

The rub with all this is that the tooling resides in China so China will have to do all the molding, decorating and assembly.  They are reluctant to send just parts as they were once before.  We have chassis done over there an shipped here, and then we send them back to be fixed, they send them here and we send them back to be fixed, then they send them here and we send them back to get fixed....and if they are too chatty ask about holding schedule and they go dark real fast...  LOL  If we bought any of that tooling we would loose control of it fast.  We've talked about getting just plastic parts and most factories want the whole Monte and nothing less.  You can get undecs but they also want full runs of printed cars as well, so that's something I doubt we would want to deal.  If I remember right in the past we talked about them providing all the components and we would do the decorating and assembly...that was possible 15 years ago, I don't know if it still holds true to be honest.   

If we just wanted the chassis that could work but given Walthers is getting out of the business I don't know what kind of package deal they are offering or may be held to by the factory in China.

I don't know what Lowells agreement is but I suspect he will have to have most of his decorating done there and they want large runs...not his business model but then again, it's Lowell so being surprised and impressed with his deal making would not be surprising.

Joe

[peteski]

That is the sad part of all this Made in China outsourcing: they seem to have the outsourcing US company by their cajones.  And they know that the US company will not simply move on somewhere else - there is no alternative.  It should really be the other way around: the US company should be able to dictate terms to the company they outsourced production to. It is sad indeed.  But who is to blame?  Probably us, the modelers who want the cheapest possible models with most details.

[daniel_leavitt2000]

Joe, since you are a bit in the know here... have you heard anyone interested in picking up the engine or freight car line?