Lima/Model Power heavyweight Coach

[Nick Lorusso]

What is the difference between Lima and Model Power Heavyweight Coaches? I have 3 I'm looking to paint up for PRR and looking to buy some detail parts and I see them only for Lima cars.

[Mark5]

I assume you mean the Heavyweight car.

The tooling on the Lima coaches (made in Italy) is much better. The early Model power versions were made by Lima for Model Power, but production shifted to Hong Kong/China years ago and the tooling is not as "fine". I posted comparison pix years ago - if I can find them again I will repost.

[peteski]

http://spookshow.net/passenger/limaheavy.html

I have both types and the tooling looks to be different on the Chinese-made Model Power models. MP seems like a crude copy of the Lima models.  Especially the trucks.

[Lemosteam]

While the MP models appear to look like the Lima bodies, it is not until you measure them that you see the actual differences.

I have an old MP and a new MP body. the belief that the tooling is the same between any of them is a myth, after I scoured, measured and compared identical dimensions.

A dead giveaway is the off center truck bolster boss to its mounting hole.

To be a true Lima car, the casting must say LIMA at one end of the centerbeam's bottom surface, and ITALY at the other.

The Lima bodies are so much better and more crisp, especially after stripping the paint do you see this.

Some detail parts that are designed for the Lima will come very close to fitting the MP shell, but some filing and fitting is required.

If you are referring to any Keystone Details parts you can PM me for more specifics.

I am not aware of issues with other's designs.

[thomasjmdavis]

Some years ago I kitbashed a "close enough" (for me, at the time) version of Chicago and Western Indiana #48, a baggage coach combine with vestibules at both ends.  Although I can't state with .  certainty, I think the car's origins go back to some PRR cars purchased by C$WI. Unfortunately, not recognizing the distinctions between "Lima" and "Model Power", I ended up with parts from one each.  So I can state with authority that not only is the Lima belt rail remarkably better detailed (rivets smaller and better and height of belt rail is closer to scale on the Lima), but the beltrails and other parts of the sides don't line up particularly well.

The other thing I recall was that the plastic they are made from is different.  The Lima plastic is harder and cuts cleaner- you can score and snap it.  The MP plastic was much softer.  I suspect it is the same material they used on their shortie streamlined cars (which were originally Minitrix tooling).  This probably has some small advantage in that it would be less likely to crack or chip if you drop the car, but makes me think they were focused more on the "toy train" market than the "model railroad" market.

[Lemosteam]

The Lima P70 is a drop dead ringer for the car in the top photo- a very early P70.  Note the recessed belt rail and larger door windows.

Photo from PRR Parts web page:

[OldEastRR]

The Lima P70 is a drop dead ringer for the car in the top photo- a very early P70. 

Except for the trucks. And the end stairs.

[ncbqguy]

The "inset" belt rail is a painted stripe.   If you look closely at the splice plates they run up over the belt rail which stands proud over the side sheets.....conventional construction.   I'm not a PRR expert but the second lower photo is probably an earlier car as it has simulated wood sheathing.   People were worried about being electrocuted by lightning in metal cars.
The six wheel trucks were also used on this family of cars, especially the mail baggage combine.
Charlie Vlk

[Loren Perry]

The "inset" belt rail is a painted stripe.   If you look closely at the splice plates they run up over the belt rail which stands proud over the side sheets.....conventional construction.   I'm not a PRR expert but the second lower photo is probably an earlier car as it has simulated wood sheathing.   People were worried about being electrocuted by lightning in metal cars.
The six wheel trucks were also used on this family of cars, especially the mail baggage combine.
Charlie Vlk

Look again at that "wood sheathing". Those lines aren't quite vertical and they extend over the rest of the car including underbody detailing and the trucks, and even on the rails. You'll also see vestiges of these lines on the upper photo but at a more severe 45 degree angle. Likely a photo reproduction effect.

[dougnelson]

The "inset" belt rail is a painted stripe.   If you look closely at the splice plates they run up over the belt rail which stands proud over the side sheets.....conventional construction.   I'm not a PRR expert but the second lower photo is probably an earlier car as it has simulated wood sheathing.   People were worried about being electrocuted by lightning in metal cars.
The six wheel trucks were also used on this family of cars, especially the mail baggage combine.
Charlie Vlk

Sorry Charlie, but that is not correct. The upper car is an "as built" P70 with an inset belt rail as correctly depicted in the Lima model. The lower car is an early modernized P70 with the end windows eliminated, new doors, trucks, and yes, new siding that covered over the indented belt rail. As noted on the photos, the upper photo (as-built) is from 1914 and the lower photo (modernized) is from 1937. Also, all P70 coaches rode on 4-wheel trucks.  The PBM70 (the Lima combine with 15' RPO), and the PB70 coach baggage combine, did ride on six-wheel trucks. There were also many other P70 modernized versions.

[peteski]

Look again at that "wood sheathing". Those lines aren't quite vertical and the extend over the rest of the car including underbody detailing and the trucks, and even on the rails. You'll also see vestiges of these lines on the upper photo but at a more severe 45 degree angle. Likely a photo reproduction effect.

I agree that the lines in the picture look like an artifact caused by a low-res scan of a photo printed in halftone (scan from a book) without using the scanner's descreening feature.

[ncbqguy]

Agree that the photo res misled me....
But I am not convinced on the recessed belt rail.  To have a recessed belt rail the structural members behind the side sheets would have to be interrupted....which I don't believe would happen.  The side sheets and window panels attach directly to the same vertical frame member which runs from the sill to the roof eave.   
The belt rail is painted a dark color as are the side sheet splices that offset over the bottom flat of the belt rail molding.  The belt rail serves as a cap for the side sheets and also forms the basis for the window sills. The window panels overlap the top edge of the belt rail.
If there is something strange going on with the early PRR steel cars I'd like to see a cross section drawing showing how a recessed belt rail works!
Charlie Vlk

[thomasjmdavis]

Based on photos and a drawing in John H White's American Railroad Passenger Car, Vol 1, I think Charlie is correct about the belt rail NOT being recessed.

Figure 2.25 is a side elevation drawing published in Railway Review in 1907 and no recess is indicated (granted, not a section drawing, which would be more conclusive).

Below that is a builder's photo (figure 2.26) which, luckily, thanks to Jerry Laboda's Passenger Car Photo Index, I was able to locate on the web.
http://digital.hagley.org/islandora/object/islandora%3A2363946/datastream/OBJ/view

Also not indicated in the drawings on the Keystone Crossing site
http://prr.railfan.net/diagrams/PRRdiagrams.html?diag=P70_P70D_prior1926.gif&sel=coa&sz=lg&fr=

[OldEastRR]

I agree, there's no recessed belt line. Tho the Pennsy did some odd design things, I doubt they put a pointless groove down the sides of their cars. And if you look very carefully at the first B&W print, at certain places along under the window sills you can see a faint parallel line, which corresponds to the rail under the sills on the builders photo. Since it's an intermittent line I'm pretty sure its not a distortion or bad resolution of the photo, since those would go the entire length.
Why they painted that line black however, I have no idea.

[thomasjmdavis]

I agree, there's no recessed belt line. Tho the Pennsy did some odd design things, I doubt they put a pointless groove down the sides of their cars. And if you look very carefully at the first B&W print, at certain places along under the window sills you can see a faint parallel line, which corresponds to the rail under the sills on the builders photo. Since it's an intermittent line I'm pretty sure its not a distortion or bad resolution of the photo, since those would go the entire length.
Why they painted that line black however, I have no idea.

2 possibilities occur to me (just speculation).  First, the beltrail itself was fairly deep (or looks that way in photos) with a sort of "window sill" on top- so I wonder if the dark area beneath is a hard shadow.  In 1907, most of the photos would have been shot in bright sunlight.  For a builder's photo they would have used mirrors or bounce cards to reflect sunlight to eliminate shadows as best they could.  But an in service photo this would be less likely, so the shadow is more apparent.  Second thought is that PRR might have found it necessary to paint some sealant under the beltrail, if water tended to wick underneath and into that seam.  These were among the very first production steel cars, and the design was still rather experimental- so there were no doubt a few issues like that to deal with. (For that matter, there were water issues with Pullman Standard fluted side cars 30+ years later).