MT Metal Wheels

[nkalanaga]

Those must be ancient.  They were already using plastic wheels on a metal axle when I bought my first KD trucks in the early 70s.

For rolling tests, if you want a "standard" car, why not just use identical cars for each test?  The specific results would only be valid for that car model, but one should get basically the same comparative results for other cars.

[Doug G.]

The Kadee metal wheel sets were only on the very early trucks and were never used on any of the cars, which first appeared in late 1972. They were only sold on the separate trucks and they were changed to plastic after the die failed for the metal sets.

I have a couple sets of trucks with the metal wheels and they roll about the same as later plastic wheels. Freely.

Having said that, I have long ago managed to stop myself from being so obsessive about how freely my cars roll or how clean treads are on the wheels and running trains has been a lot more fun since.

Doug

[nkalanaga]

Doug:  Thank you.  I think that was about the time I bought my first MT trucks, and I didn't buy their very first freight cars (no money, and what I had went for track, trucks and couplers).

[OldEastRR]

The Kadee metal wheel sets were only on the very early trucks and were never used on any of the cars, which first appeared in late 1972. They were only sold on the separate trucks and they were changed to plastic after the die failed for the metal sets.

I have a couple sets of trucks with the metal wheels and they roll about the same as later plastic wheels. Freely.

Having said that, I have long ago managed to stop myself from being so obsessive about how freely my cars roll or how clean treads are on the wheels and running trains has been a lot more fun since.

Doug

Um, I have many sets of old Kadee metal wheels/plastic axles, they came on the early cars -- remember all those 40' PS-1s painted the same color brown with various road names/logos all in (thin) white only? And all the same doors. The straight plastic axles are pointed and stick through the metal wheels. Then came the plastic wheels with the tapered plastic axles that plugged into a hole in the back of the wheel and didn't go through. Thire plastic wheel ribs are much better defined and closer together than those on the metal wheels.
So it seems we've gone back to the beginning? 
If you can get the old metal wheels chucked on a thin metal rod in a Dremel, you can turn down the flanges to lo-profile and have wheels not otherwise available in N.

[peteski]

If you can get the old metal wheels chucked on a thin metal rod in a Dremel, you can turn down the flanges to lo-profile and have wheels not otherwise available in N.

True, but if you look at the earlier photo of those wheels in a truck it appears that the ribs on the back of the wheels extend into the flange. To me it looks like when the flange is turned down to NMRA specs, the back of the flange will have ribs in it.

[OldEastRR]

I suppose if you have a layout visitor who comes with an Optivisor and a small flashlight to peer under your cars at the backs of the wheels and would get upset, DON'T turn down the old metal wheels. 

[nkalanaga]

You can also turn the ribbed plastic wheels.  I did hundreds of them, waiting for the reports to print at work, in the mid 80s. 

[robert3985]

You can also turn the ribbed plastic wheels.  I did hundreds of them, waiting for the reports to print at work, in the mid 80s.

I still have a few cars running on the layout which are equipped with turned, ribbed plastic N-scale Kadee wheelsets.  I turned hundreds of them because all that was available in the 80's were NWSL NS wheelsets and they were outrageously expensive, and also to prove to the doubters in the Ntrak club that lo-pros would be reliable.  I think I still have some NWSL Kadee compatible NS wheelsets in my parts bin, but they pale in comparison to BLMA and FVM from an appearance standpoint, so the NWSL wheelsets will remain in the parts bin.

Frankly, I won't be purchasing any of the new MTL wheelsets because they're a step or two backwards (three?) as far as appearance is concerned, and I'm also not too happy with their finish as well as their engineering design.

Cheerio!
Bob Gilmore

[OldEastRR]

You can also turn the ribbed plastic wheels.  I did hundreds of them, waiting for the reports to print at work, in the mid 80s.

Tell me the method and equipment you used. I have lots of such wheels I still like to use.

[nkalanaga]

It was simple enough, but you probably wouldn't want to do it...  Remember, I was a computer operator in a bank data center, so all work had to be done in the computer room, while waiting for jobs to finish.

All I did was to take a piece of brass rod, chuck it in my Dremel, and turn the end, with a needle file, to fit into the wheels.  Then, by eye, I filed the flanges down, testing  them with an NMRA gauge as I went, also by eye.  A few were over-filed, and ruined, but probably 95% came out usable.

The hard part was taking all of the wheelsets apart, as some were very tight, and some of the flanges were a little on the sharp side.  Combine that with pressing them onto the rod, taking  them off again, and putting them back on the axles, and my fingers were a little sore by the time I was done.  It took a month or so, because even then I had a couple hundred cars, and was frequently interrupted by work.  And, after reassembly, not all were in gauge, because the inside face of the flange got filed a little on some of them.  They all needed to be checked for gauge as well.

So, it can be done, and if you want the ribbed back wheels, the results are good.  But it is a pain, literally and figuratively, and if you can find a better way, go for it.

Now, if you can clamp your motor tool in place, and make a flange cutting tool, even if it is hand held, it would be a lot easier.  You'd still have to take everything apart, but you wouldn't have to keep checking the flange depth and shape.  If you had a lathe, you could make tooling to hold and turn an entire set, doing both wheels at the same time, and they'd have to stay in gauge.

[peteski]

I'm surprised that the wheels press fit onto a small diameter axle did did not slip on that axle while being turned.

[robert3985]

My method was a bit more complicated, but more consistent.  (1) Buy a lathe (mine is an Atlas 6" lathe with a lot of tooling) (2) Build a brass jig that holds the dismounted plastic wheel securely and precisely, using the tailstock center to press against a brass "keeper" which prevents the plastic wheel from rotating when being cut (3) Grind a flange contouring tool to N-scale RP-25 spec's.

Dismount the wheels from the axle, press the dismounted wheel on to the jig which has a center post .001" smaller in diameter than the axle ends and shorter than the depth of the axle hole in the plastic wheel, then place the "keeper" (which has a precise hole bored through its center and which registers on the base of the wheel's needle point.  The OD of the "keeper" being a few mils larger than the OD of the small outer end of the wheels tapered tire tread) on to the wheel's needle point.

If the base of the wheel's needle point is damaged a tiny bit, this is okay as the important part of the needle point is the pointy end.

Run the tailstock's ball-bearing center taper up to the "keeper's" center hole and apply a bit of pressure to keep the plastic wheel, which is sandwiched between the jig and the "keeper", from rotating.  Make sure the length of the "keeper" is such that the tip of the ball-bearing center taper doesn't touch the plastic wheel's needle tip and damage it.

@peteski  Peter, this puts the "keeping" pressure directly on the outside of the wheel and simultaneously registers it so it doesn't wobble.  The jig's center post is only for precise centering (within +/- .001" ) of the plastic wheel.  The "keeper" registers on the base of the wheel's needle point.  Since the center post is .001" smaller than the Kadee axle ends, it doesn't swage the center holes in the wheels so they'll press-fit just fine again onto the axle ends after being cut.

Turn on the lathe.

Run the flange contouring tool into the plastic flange (like a cutoff tool) the appropriate distance at the proper feed speed, and back it out quickly.

Turn off the lathe.

Look at the wheel still pressed between the jig and "keeper", rotating it once slowly to make sure it's smooth and properly modified.

Run the tailstock out an appropriate distance.

Remove the "keeper"

Remove the modified wheel

Do it all over again with the next wheel.

After everything is properly set up on your lathe, turning the flange down on each wheel only takes a minute or less, and is very precise with exact, repeatable results.  Delrin is really wonderful and easy to machine.

That's how I did my old Kadee wheelsets if my memory serves me, and there are additional specification and cautions about building the jig and "keeper".  It's been a LONG time ago!

I mounted the wheel jig in an independent 4-jaw chuck and centered it exactly using a magnetically mounted dial indicator, which got removed once the jig was exactly positioned.

Cheerio!
Bob Gilmore

[peteski]

Nice!  If one (like you or me) owns a lathe of course.

[Doug G.]

Ah, turning flanges. Great story Mr. Kalanaga and not unlike work I did on N scale trains (resoldering windings to commutators, rewinding armatures, etc.) where I worked (only on break time, of course "cough"). I had a powerful stereo microscope there.

When I bought my first Atlas/Mehano locos, they had huge flanges, I dare say deeper than MT "pizza cutters" and I just left them in the loco and took a file to them while holding them upside down and running the motor. Somehow, I managed not to overheat the motors. It was a dicey proposition, however. 45+ years later, they still run so I guess I didn't ruin them

Doug

[narrowminded]

This isn't to add to the metal wheel discussion but is something I recently discovered with the plastic wheels and this reply was triggered by Max's post with dimensions.  The flange width dimension that you measured on the plastic wheels (.010") must be from an older set as I recently discovered something that may be old news to many of you with decades at this but I sure didn't know and had never heard of. 

I had a number of various vintage older hoppers that I hadn't run until very recently.  Some had the larger flanges and I changed them to low profile while others already had the low profile.  All were original with truck mounted couplers.  What happened was a problem when backing through switches with a string of 10 to maybe twenty-five cars I had a few that would pick a switch on occasion.  And it was always the same cars and from the same sets.  A quick glance and a quick back gauge check showed them all to be fine, in spec.  A close look at the switch and it looked to be fine.  Maybe a little tweeking could be done but basically should have worked and DID on a LOT of different cars. 

This had just shown itself with these hoppers.  As I was looking closer at them I noticed that the flanges on the troublesome cars, those that already had the low profile flanges therefore hadn't received new wheels, did appear to be pointier, narrower, maybe.   Measured and sure enough, .010" whereas all of the replacement sets I had and all of those I measured on any other cars I had were .020".  It was all one series of cars.  I changed them all out with new plastic wheel sets (.020") and no more problems.  Then I remembered that some time ago I had a few boxcars (5?) that had done this once in a while, always the same ones, and I had just set them aside to be looked over another day.  Went and checked them and sure enough, those had the .010" flange widths.  That had me checking through a lot more and only found another few cars in my inventory with these narrow flanges and replacing them cured any propensity for picking a switch.

Bottom line, the newer plastic MT wheel flange width measures .020" which also agrees with the NMRA spec.  I suspect with the knowledge floating around here that somebody can chime in with a fuller explanation.  Hopefully it's helpful to someone like me who never knew this was a possibility.