At a Crossroads

[davefoxx]

Guys,

I'm really struggling with where to go in this hobby.  The Seaboard Central 2.0 has been sold and will find a new home very shortly.  I'm trying my hand at adding sound to an N scale locomotive right now but just can't seem to find the desire to work on it anymore.  I have come to enjoy the sound in two factory N scale locomotives, but recognize their limitations due to speaker size.  However, it's good enough that I know that I no longer wish to run or purchase silent locomotives.  I just bought an NCE DCC system, and have been playing with it on the Seaboard Central.  I'm enjoying it, and can already see how I can mess around with the CVs to really take advantage of sound options.

Here's the dilemma: where to go from here?

On30 scale.  I really like my two ET&WNC ten wheelers, but the sheer size of O scale is making it an all-or-nothing affair in my space.  And, I have come to realize that I cannot forego my love of Class 1 1980s railroading, i.e., Seaboard System and predecessors.  I think I must scale back the On30 and am considering a two-sided shadow box affair in the neighborhood of 42" x 96" with a scene on each side and the curves hidden in the shadow box (not unlike what Model Railroader did with their On30 Olympia Logging Co. project layout).  It is also important to note that I can just not bring myself to invest thousands of dollars into the layout room right now.  That money would be best spent on other parts of our house, and I can still easily build freestanding shelf-style layouts.  See below for ideas to fund the new layout(s).

N scale.  I'm fearing that N scale sound, despite the wonderful things that @jdcolombo is doing, just won't cut it for me in the long run.  I'm seriously tempted to purchase an HO scale locomotive with DCC and sound to experiment and test where I want to go from here.  I already have a loop of Kato HO scale track that I used to test my On30 locomotives.  I am seriously considering purging the N scale fleet to subsidize a new HO scale fleet.  Obviously, this will be a smaller fleet, but that will be in line with less locomotives and cars needed for the larger scale.  It's possible that my new desire to go back to HO scale is a happy medium between the compactness of N scale and the sheer mass of O scale locomotives.  A new HO scale layout would be a shelf layout along the style of what Lance Mindheim is doing.

Help. 

DFF

[Cajonpassfan]

Guys,

I'm really struggling with where to go in this hobby.
...
Here's the dilemma: where to go from here?

On30 scale.  I really like my two ET&WNC ten wheelers, but the sheer size of O scale is making it an all-or-nothing affair in my space.  And, I have come to realize that I cannot forego my love of Class 1 1980s railroading, i.e., Seaboard System and predecessors.  I think I must scale back the On30 and am considering ....

Help. 

DFF

Dave, this is a lifetime hobby. My advice is to go with whatever your passion is, it will pay off in the long term. Personally, I find multiple layouts distracting; there is just soooo much to do on any one and that requires focus. Yea, it maybe fun to jump around and build an occasional model in a different scale, but building multiple operating layouts (not dioramas) is too much for most mortals.

Your choice will absolutely mean compromises and limits (doesn't everything in life?) If you go with a Class 1 in HO, how long will your trains need to be to be credible? If it's a shelf switching layout, does that give you what you're looking for in a Class 1 railroad?

N scale sound has its limitations as well, but technology is moving at incredible speeds. What will we have in five years? Ten?

This is a very personal decision, so what the hell do I know?
Unlike with other things in life, you can alway change your mind down the road.
Good luck, and have fun with it, it is a hobby.
Otto K.

[johnb]

If you want great sound out of N Scale.....
http://lancemindheim.com/about-us/wireless-headphone-sound/

[conrail98]

Dave, I think I hit the same thing you did a little while ago. While I haven't gotten as far as you have with a layout like your expanding and shrinking Seaboard Central 2.0, I contemplated the same thing with sound and HO. Here were my thoughts on it at the time:

http://www.conrailharrisburgline.org/2016/01/the-ho-bug.html

Maybe this can help you out, maybe not, the comments also provided some introspection by others that was very helpful. Ultimately I decided I had way too much invested in N scale and to purge it would take forever and the source of moving to HO would be money from that purge. Then I started looking at prices for things in HO and just realized that I'd probably have to purge 3 N scale cars to be able to buy 1 HO car and about the same, maybe higher ratio for newer engines. Are there more options out there in HO, yes, but at a cost that's higher then I may be willing to go. It is a very personal decision to decide which way to go and every now and then I pull out Lance's books and go I might be able to live with this or that but I've never fully gone over that line to pull the trigger.

HTH,

Phil

[Dave V]

Well, Dave, I can sympathize.

For now maybe don't think about it so hard.  Play with trains.

[conrail98]

If you want great sound out of N Scale.....
http://lancemindheim.com/about-us/wireless-headphone-sound/

Also combine this with the stuff Ed has been working on for the same reason:

- Phil

[basementcalling]

Is your hobby railroad sounds or model railroading?

I still just go choo choo choo when my engines go by so I'm no help with your delema. Do what makes you happy without starting over from square one.

[jdcolombo]

Headphones and virtual sound decoders may one day be the way we do this, but right now, neither of these is ready for prime time.  Using wireless headphones fed by a single sound decoder is fine - if you have a single engine.  But if you have multiple engines, you'd need multiple sound decoders and some way to switch among them so that you could play the correct sounds for the specific locomotive you have selected (or the consist you have selected - and what if you want that consist to have multiple active prime movers?).

The virtual sound option holds more promise, because after all, a sound decoder is just a miniature computer.  In theory, you should be able to set up multiple VSD's that would automatically be selected with the locomotive selection, and combined in a consist where you want multiple prime movers active.  But the technology is nowhere near that capability currently, and as much as I admire the folks updating JMRI, I doubt a viable VSD technology operating the way I've described will be with us any time soon - not to mention that it will take a source of sounds, and I don't think ESU or any other sound decoder manufacturer is going to license it's sound files to JMRI any time soon.  So unless someone is willing to undertake what Matt Hermann does for ESU on a volunteer basis, I just don't see it happening.

And then there is the question whether I want to don headphones when running trains for sound purposes; and if I already use a headset in operations for dispatching, how are those things going to be integrated?  And as I've said on other threads, I'm not entirely sure that having full-on prototype sound coming through headphones while you are operating a 1/160th scale model is even appropriate; think about it: if you are a foot away from that model, it is the equivalent of 160 prototype feet, not 10'.  If you are 2' away, that's a football field.  Certainly you will still hear some bass rumble at 160' or a football field away from a prototype diesel, but it won't be the same as being 10' from it.

Don't get me wrong - I admire the folks looking for better solutions for N scale sound and given the rate of technological change, in 10 years we might all end up squirting nanites in our ears before an op session that would directly excite our eardrums based on radio computer commands coming from a JMRI-like system as we operate our trains.  But right now, I believe the best solution still is on-board sound IF the on-board installation uses all the tricks available to maximize sound quality. 

As for Dave's original musings, I too flirted briefly with the advantages of HO scale - more mass, more room, etc.  I operate on a large HO layout (and am helping build another) with sound-equipped locos, and while each is excellent, I don't find the experience any better than operating on my own N scale layout with sound-equipped locomotives.  Indeed, I have had visitors who remarked that the sound they hear from my N scale locos is actually BETTER than what they've heard from factory HO sound installations (which doesn't surprise me, since I've yet to see a factory sound installation that really maximized sound quality).

So if your angst is about "better sound" in HO, yeah, maybe - if you roll your own.  But I'm not sure it would be so much better that giving up the space advantages (for both trains and scenery) of N is worth the tradeoff.

John C.

[Scottl]

I feel for you @davefoxx . I've been at the same crossroads for it seems like a very long time. 

I just plug away at the things on my to do list and it has kept me busy for a long time, and almost certainly many years to come.  I get the urge to run here and there and I have a layout to do it when I do. 

As far as sound goes:  I use my time in the layout room to listen to music and podcasts 

In the end, I think @Dave Vollmer is right.  Don't think too much about it and just do what feels right.

[LIRR]

Dave,

I recently switched to HO from N. The n scale layout was 99% complete in 3/4 of the areas and i had a few things left to do elsewhere. But i got the blahs for a variety of reasons and was spending less and less time on it. The HO layout is moving along and i am reinvigorated. Ive been in the basement more in the last 6 months than the preceding 2 or 3 years. I also converted to DCC and sound. Make a decision...HO, O, a new N scale layout. Whatever you decide will surliest give you a jump start.

LIRR

[mu26aeh]

As far as sound goes, while it's progressing nicely in N scale, I find I end up really only using the horn and bell most times and maybe the coupling/uncoupling when I remember them    This is not an end all be all for me, especially if multiple trains are running, the sounds get excessive and sometimes annoying.  Maybe best used in a yard while switching cuts of cars or building trains. 

As far as other scales go, I scratch that itch by attending ops sessions when invited.  I have friends in HO and O scale.  Two HO layouts I operate on have zero sound units, at least zero turned on while we are operating, as mentioned above, it gets too overwhelming with the number of turns going on at once.  The O scale layout I work/operate on, most locomotives are sound equipped.  At most, there will be 2-3 jobs at once going on but this is across an entire basement so as to not be too much noise.  Given the size of the speakers and space available, I find this is the best sounding application. 

Last week, I was operating on one of the HO layouts and broke out @Ed Kapuscinski 's Train Crew application.  It was received with, "hey, what's that ? " as I didn't announce to anyone else that I had opened it up.  They thought it was a need application and I will try to use it again the next time I'm there and see if others want to try it.  Given it's sound ability, I didn't need the sound in the locomotive.  In that respect, maybe Ed can add a horn or bell feature to the screen somewhere. 

[mark dance]

If you want great sound out of N Scale.....
http://lancemindheim.com/about-us/wireless-headphone-sound/

Not to be a wet blanket but I have implemented this approach on the C&W's Slocan branch - and have used it for nearly 3 years - and I find the effect of hearing sound out of a headphone when it should be coming out of  a model in front of me disconcerting. I much prefer sound coming from the locos though it admittedly is of lower quality. The effect is much better overall.  I believe my operators agree...it is interesting but gimmicky after a while.

BTW: A similar approach is used on my son's Anki Overdrive race car set with sound coming from the controlling smart device...same issue.

md

[davefoxx]

Thank you all for taking the time to respond.  I will address each one of your posts, but first, I stopped by MBK this afternoon and bought an HO scale locomotive and a freight car.  I bought this locomotive (an Athearn Genesis GP40-2 decorated in the Family Lines scheme for the L&N):

http://www.modeltrainstuff.com/Athearn-Genesis-HO-G40971-GP40-2-LN-DCC-p/ath-g40971.htm

and an Athearn Genesis 50' box car decorated for the Frisco.  Heh, it hauls beer.  So, as the very wise @Dave Vollmer suggested, I'm going to go play with a train!  I'll report back later this weekend.

Thanks again,
DFF

[newt749]

Dave,

I very much sympathize with your dilemma. As I entered retirement, I always wanted to complete my home layout. To that end I have done quite a few things to start that dream. I'm now slowly getting foam in place and inclines glued down. Soon I will be adding track and test running a train. So why do I have a file drawer full of On30 stuff? Well, at 66, I know that eventually I may want to "scale down" my hobby a bit, especially once my eyesight and arthritis get worse. My thoughts were to enjoy N-scale while I can but if I have to go to On30 then I have something to start with. Even better is my plan to use some of my N-scale stuff to create On18 critters and things. Why not have the best of both worlds? To me it is the fun of model railroading, not necessarily the scale that matters. My local club, the Saint John Society of Model Railroaders is a modular group with N-scale, HO-scale and O/On30 scale members. There is much to gain in having others from different scales there to offer advice.

My advice to you is to do both and don't look back. Each scale has its advantages. Find a way to enjoy both scales and then try to match your needs to one or the other as conditions change. A small module to test ideas works in both N-scale and On30. Model railroading should be fun after all!

Rob
Hampton, New Brunswick
Canada

[Point353]

Guys, I'm really struggling with where to go in this hobby.  The Seaboard Central 2.0 has been sold and will find a new home very shortly. ...

Here's the dilemma: where to go from here?

On30 scale.  I really like my two ET&WNC ten wheelers, but the sheer size of O scale is making it an all-or-nothing affair in my space.  And, I have come to realize that I cannot forego my love of Class 1 1980s railroading, i.e., Seaboard System and predecessors.  I think I must scale back the On30 and am considering a two-sided shadow box affair in the neighborhood of 42" x 96" with a scene on each side and the curves hidden in the shadow box (not unlike what Model Railroader did with their On30 Olympia Logging Co. project layout).  ...

N scale.  ...  It's possible that my new desire to go back to HO scale is a happy medium between the compactness of N scale and the sheer mass of O scale locomotives.  A new HO scale layout would be a shelf layout along the style of what Lance Mindheim is

Does any particular aspect of the hobby give you more enjoyment than another?
Do you particularly like building a layout, or is that just a means to get to running trains?

Are there any local clubs (probably HO or modular N) where you could get your fix in one of the smaller scales while you have the On30 layout at home?

If you do build an On30 layout, could you make it a two-level design with the On30 in the shadow box on the bottom and a separate N, or possibly HO, layout on top at about eye level?