How do we go beyond "Reservations?"

[CBQ Fan]

Bingo, on both counts.

There is no strategic advantage for the manufacturer to sit on release date information.  The common-sense play is to post any concrete release date information available in order to maximize demand.  As it is, it's unlikely that the "firm" dates will ever be more precise that the release quarter, given that product may be delayed by factors beyond the contractor such as the freight carrier, customs, destination port and weather.  The last ESM well car release sat in New York City on the container ship an extra two weeks or so because the port hadn't gotten around to unloading the LCL product on the ship.  And that was with the shipment departing China on time and going through pre-customs to avoid delays there.

Not trying to get blood out of a turnip or pick on Atlas, but I have seen many instances of products arriving at Mbklien while their website doesn't show it even shipped from china.  So, knowing the fine folks at Atlas that tells me it is a resource, or lack thereof, issue.  Trying to be too aggressive in providing information.  Whereas TBD by Intermountain is code for, we are going to quietly cancel this offering soon without telling anyone. 

[Rossford Yard]

If you set aside $$ in your September budget for those F's, depending on your approach, you may well not have the fundage in May to make the purchase because the May money is "dedicated" to something else.  That leaves the dealer in a lurch WRT his/her stock, and puts you and the dealer at odds even though neither of you is really at fault.

I don't recall too many new products arriving early, except perhaps Kato, which puts things out with little notice, and very soon after announcement.

Most complaints are arriving late, way late.  While sometimes hard, If you budget in Sept., and it is delayed, presumably you could save that money if your MRR budget was really tight, although I can sure see doubt whether it gets produced at all making you spend your money on other "necessities." But, for really must have locos and cars (and think that phrasing over a bit....) it seems you would save up, if necessary.

Agree these perspectives are really economics driven.  For someone making $100 K per year, they just pay the little extra if some reservations come in later/earlier and there is other stuff to buy.  Put it on the card and expect (maybe) to pay over 2-3 months with interest.  Bummer, but affordable.  If not as well off, it can be a major pain.......but I still wonder if the mfgs can cater to that segment at the expense of other customers, their own profits, etc.  Obviously, the answer up to now has been pretty much no.

Also agree that basically, EBay and Train shows has replaced LHS dusty stock as the secondary market for items bought well beyond the mfg dates.

Also agree with the notion that some part of the MRR customer base will complain about something (all of us complaining about something different sometimes seems to add up to one constant complaint......) so maybe the mfgs can't win.  At the very least, I presume they have sat in board meetings and discussed these very topics, similarly without resolution.

[CBQ Fan]

No one said we don't know what's coming.  When it's coming is the issue.  You find out what when you get the shipment manifest prior to container loading.  Once you know it's in the container (or at least in possession of the broker) and what ship the container is being transported on, you have a general idea of when it will arrive based on the ship's schedule.


These also are not big-ticket high-volume items, so they don't take priority regarding shipping schedules.

Two dates that would be good share then, 1)when the factory starts production and 2)when it is expected to leave the dock in China. 

Interestingly enough the Atlas website has update about 2/3 of the products that were listed 1st quarter.

[Rossford Yard]

Two dates that would be good share then, 1)when the factory starts production and 2)when it is expected to leave the dock in China. 

Interestingly enough the Atlas website has update about 2/3 of the products that were listed 1st quarter.

This may not apply, but when working in Asia, I was expecting a load of frozen/refrigerated sod for a project.  For days, they wouldn't release it from the dock.  Finally, went down to see for myself and realized all it took was a $50USD bribe to get the container unloaded.  Didn't seem like a lot of money to me (although torqued me off to pay it) but the Owner's agent thought it was too outrageous to pay, so the container sat.  I imagine some of the labor "strife" any US company faces might be of similar nature.....maybe there ought to be a surcharge on every model for that, and it bribes paid should be part of the updated web site.....LOL.

[bbussey]

Two dates that would be good share then, 1)when the factory starts production and 2)when it is expected to leave the dock in China. 

Interestingly enough the Atlas website has update about 2/3 of the products that were listed 1st quarter.

Why, so blame can be assessed to whomever has possession of the goods if/when the chain breaks down?  What productive purpose would that serve?  All that would do is tick people off.

Picking of nits to pick, regarding budgeted funds — if hobby funds for a certain month are earmarked for an incoming product, and the product gets delayed, why wouldn't that money remain set aside until said product arrives?  I've never understood the concept of not having available funds for late-arriving product if technically it was allocated in the original release month.  If product is delayed, I just put the money aside and it's there whenever the product arrives.

[CBQ Fan]

Why, so blame can be assessed to whomever has possession of the goods if/when the chain breaks down?  What productive purpose would that serve?  All that would do is tick people off.

Picking of nits to pick, regarding budgeted funds — if hobby funds for a certain month are earmarked for an incoming product, and the product gets delayed, why wouldn't that money remain set aside until said product arrives?  I've never understood the concept of not having available funds for late-arriving product if technically it was allocated in the original release month.  If product is delayed, I just put the money aside and it's there whenever the product arrives.

Yes, actually sharing hard data, like items are actually in production or physically on a ship would be worse than posting stale data, incorrect data, or wild a$$ guesses.  it isn't about blame, it is about information so people make make better informed decisions.

[bbussey]

Yes, actually sharing hard data, like items are actually in production or physically on a ship would be worse than posting stale data, incorrect data, or wild a$$ guesses.  it isn't about blame, it is about information so people make make better informed decisions.

Where the delays occur are irrelevant.  Once the container is loaded, you're going to see the product within a month of the posted date.

[peteski]

I also do not understand CBQ Fan's need to know where the delay is occurring. Delay is delay. Whether it is because there is a strike at the factory or someone didn't pay a bribe to have the container loaded on a ship is really irrelevant to me.

[CBQ Fan]

I also do not understand CBQ Fan's need to know where the delay is occurring. Delay is delay. Whether it is because there is a strike at the factory or someone didn't pay a bribe to have the container loaded on a ship is really irrelevant to me.

I honestly could not care less where the delay is from.   . 

[CBQ Fan]

Where the delays occur are irrelevant.  Once the container is loaded, you're going to see the product within a month of the posted date.

Which is only helpful if they post the information timely.   

[peteski]

Which is only helpful if they post the information timely.   

I'll take this one step further - what is the beef here? In the old days (yes, the old days) we were happy whenever new stuff showed up. The only announcement were vague ads in printed magazines. I don't recall firm release dates begin even given (well except maybe Kadee/Micro-Trains).  Manufacturers never participated in online forums or had websites. Most of today's model manufacturers deliver their new models within a reasonable amount of time corresponding to the announcement.  There are couple exceptions (from certain manufacturers) where the delay is in years, not months. But generally the delays are not that bad. Maybe manufacturers shuld simply not announce new models until they are being shipped to the distributors? 

Personally I think all the companies should adopt Kato's way of releasing new models.  But then again I think Kato has a an unfair advantage because (AFAIK) they manufacture their models in-house.

[Maletrain]

I'll take this one step further - what is the beef here? In the old days (yes, the old days) we were happy whenever new stuff showed up.

This thread seems to have drifted.  The "beef" was originally that manufacturers were no letting us know the status of their decision to produce or not produce an item that they had announced and some had pre-ordered.  That is different from the manufacturers not keeping us informed of the actual status of the manufacturing and transportation of an item once they have committed to its manufacture and sale.

[thomasjmdavis]

But then again I think Kato has a an unfair advantage because (AFAIK) they manufacture their models in-house.

Many of the model "manufacturers" are not manufacturers- they are designers and distributors of models.  They are in the position of AHM or early Con-Cor from the old days (well, 1960s or 70s), the difference being that in those days, most of the manufacturing was taking place in Europe. And inventory practices were much different in those days, so product remained available for a much longer period of time after a production run. When companies that do not own the means of production refer to themselves as manufacturers, they create the expectation that they can deliver like Kato or Micro-trains (

). What they are doing is not "bad"- just a different way of doing business, and probably contributes to keeping prices down, at least in the short run.  But it is much more difficult to anticipate delays when you do not have control over the equipment and production schedule- as we saw a few years ago when it seemed that everything manufactured in China, from locomotives to track to subcontracted parts to be assembled in the USA, was delayed when there were changes in the factory assignments and system.  Of course, there may still be delays even for companies with in house production- the MT single window coach being a prime example, and I am sure that even Kato has had a machine break down or similar issues once in a while.

[jagged ben]

Delays are generally good for my budget. 

[atsf3751]

Here is a question that probably will take this thread even farther away from the original question.

What if the container is lost at sea? There are many ways that can happen. I presume there is insurance to cover the cost of the product so there is money to cover the cost of making it again. But that will introduce more delay because the manufacturer is already busy on the next items and re-inserting this back into the schedule could be a challenge. Or your items could be delayed because this happened to someone else and their models had to be done again.

Just a thought from an alternate universe.