Mysteries of the new LokSound in the Intermountain SD40-2

[peteski]

Yep, I haven’t received the NoOxId yet.  Although it will fix poor electrical contact to a good degree, this is IMHO a bit of a bandaid approach, so the idea is for it to maintain already good electrical contact from deteriorating due to oxidation/ humidity etc.

How does it "fix" poor electrical contact?  I don't believe it is a conductive lubricant.  But yes, once the contact areas are clean then this stuff will protect them from oxidizing (as the name implies).

[Steveruger45]

Received my Caps today from Digi-key.  Can't wait to install 'em tomorrow.  I hope my dash 2 runs as well as yours Steve.

Thanks to all you guys for all your help!

Bill

Pls let us know how you got on and any insights learned. It’s always good to have another’s perspective.
Good luck
Steve

[Steveruger45]

How does it "fix" poor electrical contact?  I don't believe it is a conductive lubricant.  But yes, once the contact areas are clean then this stuff will protect them from oxidizing (as the name implies).

Hi Pete, good question, but I know for sure it is conductive, at least when dry.  We used it on all sorts of electrical contacts in the merchant marine years ago which is where I originally acquired it from and system was to clean then apply, let sit a day, wipe off, put into use.
I have never used it on model railroad stuff. So your question inspired me to do a google search and attached link I thought interesting, in so far as the model railroad community has indeed discovered this stuff and it is apparently conductive before it dries too.

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[peteski]

Steve, this "conductive lubricant" thing really gets my knickers in a twist.  That video doesn't prove that this stuff is conductive. Wiping dirty track with an oily substance and using somewhat abrasive towel will clean the track slightly.  The loco going slowly over treated track still has the headlight flashing slightly (at the end of the video).

You said that you know for a fact that this stuff is conductive when dry?  Have you actually tested it?  By test it I mean placing some if it on an insulating surface, then measuring its resistance with an ohmmeter (either when wet or dry)?  Is the resistance just few ohms?

I have no problem stating that it will improve conductivity by leaving a thin film which prevents metal oxidation, but I have doubts that it is conductive.  There are conductive greases (with very low resistance). Those are filled with small metal particles (like silver).

Which specific NoOxID are you using?  I'll see what info I can find about its conductivity.  There are several types of this stuff:
NO-OX-ID 6X SDS
NO-OX-ID A SDS
NO-OX-ID A-Special SDS
NO-OX-ID A-Special WW SDS
NO-OX-ID GG-2 SDS
NO-OX-ID NG SDS
NO-OX-ID PWL-600 SDS
NO-OX-ID XX SDS

EDIT:  I looked through the somewhat confusing info on the manufacturer's site: http://www.sanchem.com/rust-preventative-coatings.html and as I understand it, only NoOxID A-Special Electrical Grade is conductive - the other types of NoOxID without the Electrical Grade phrase are not conductive - they improve conductivity by protecting the metal surface from oxidation.

[Billg]

Pls let us know how you got on and any insights learned. It’s always good to have another’s perspective.
Good luck
Steve

Well Steve, here's what I know.  My first attempt was with only 3 caps. Reason being I only ordered 4 and didn't want to use them all.  Should have used all 4!  After installing the fourth cap I set it on the track and "crap"!  Stutter, Stutter and STUTTER.  Upon closer examination I noticed that one of the truck contacts was hung up on the chassis. (Must of happened in my excitement to try the thing).  After correcting the issue the thing RAN LIKE IT'S SUPPOSED TO!  My track isn't the cleanest but it ran without a flaw.  I do think it could use more capacitance though.  You're RIGHT, there isn't much room underneath that decoder!  The ones from Digi-Key fit extremely tight even after filing all the way down to the chassis spacer.  If someone could find, lets say a150uf to 200uf 16v to 20v cap the same size as the 100uf ones we'd be in business.  BUT, at the end of the day, these work good!

Bill

[Steveruger45]

Well Steve, here's what I know.  My first attempt was with only 3 caps. Reason being I only ordered 4 and didn't want to use them all.  Should have used all 4!  After installing the fourth cap I set it on the track and "crap"!  Stutter, Stutter and STUTTER.  Upon closer examination I noticed that one of the truck contacts was hung up on the chassis. (Must of happened in my excitement to try the thing).  After correcting the issue the thing RAN LIKE IT'S SUPPOSED TO!  My track isn't the cleanest but it ran without a flaw.  I do think it could use more capacitance though.  You're RIGHT, there isn't much room underneath that decoder!  The ones from Digi-Key fit extremely tight even after filing all the way down to the chassis spacer.  If someone could find, lets say a150uf to 200uf 16v to 20v cap the same size as the 100uf ones we'd be in business.  BUT, at the end of the day, these work good!

Bill

Glad you got it going well In the end. Yes it will be tight if you only file down to the spacer. I filed down further and then cut off the top quarter or so but not more than a third of the spacer to get enough clearance.
I thought about going in with only two caps but it was easier to go in with four as my metal file is that wide.
All my sound locos have 440 or 400 uF keep alive now.

[Steveruger45]

Steve, this "conductive lubricant" thing really gets my knickers in a twist.  That video doesn't prove that this stuff is conductive. Wiping dirty track with an oily substance and using somewhat abrasive towel will clean the track slightly.  The loco going slowly over treated track still has the headlight flashing slightly (at the end of the video).

You said that you know for a fact that this stuff is conductive when dry?  Have you actually tested it?  By test it I mean placing some if it on an insulating surface, then measuring its resistance with an ohmmeter (either when wet or dry)?  Is the resistance just few ohms?

I have no problem stating that it will improve conductivity by leaving a thin film which prevents metal oxidation, but I have doubts that it is conductive.  There are conductive greases (with very low resistance). Those are filled with small metal particles (like silver).

Which specific NoOxID are you using?  I'll see what info I can find about its conductivity.  There are several types of this stuff:
NO-OX-ID 6X SDS
NO-OX-ID A SDS
NO-OX-ID A-Special SDS
NO-OX-ID A-Special WW SDS
NO-OX-ID GG-2 SDS
NO-OX-ID NG SDS
NO-OX-ID PWL-600 SDS
NO-OX-ID XX SDS

EDIT:  I looked through the somewhat confusing info on the manufacturer's site: http://www.sanchem.com/rust-preventative-coatings.html and as I understand it, only NoOxID A-Special Electrical Grade is conductive - the other types of NoOxID without the Electrical Grade phrase are not conductive - they improve conductivity by protecting the metal surface from oxidation.

Hi Pete,
I didn’t mean to get your knickers in a twist, or panties in a wad, but we used the “A special” at sea.  I’m no chemist and didn’t do a lab test on it. In those days you took your orders and did as you were told for the reasons they told you, sometimes you didn’t get even a reason.   Happy days.   It is conductive for sure. Otherwise how would current flow through a contact once coated?
It was always stressed to let it sit a day and wipe away the excess and use it sparingly.
I used it too on my old radio ham switch gear and such to maintain a good electrical contact and found that it does improve electrical contact without proper cleaning too, at least to some extent.  So for what it’s worth it does work, but like I said I don’t subscribe to just slapping it on without properly prep-cleaning the contacts first. 
IIRC it was from the same maker as cosmoline, which we also used a lot of in the merchant marine, but never on electrical contacts BTW that was only for corrosion protection of non electrical parts for storage. 
So, in short what I am saying is based on practical past experience which I am going to try out again on my model railroading stuff to counter he awful humidity where I live.  We don’t have basements and my wife won’t let me use a spare bedroom so I’m forced into the garage.  Which is not air conditioned.  I will let everyone know what I find out with an honest opinion of how well or not it performs.
Oh yes you stressed “electrical grade” I don’t recall the packaging ever having that quoted in its name on the quart sized tubs we used to get all those years ago,  all I can remember is  NoOxId A Special but I’m pretty sure it had words like conductive lubricant somewhere on the label too.  Here is the blurb on the tub I have ordered Brand New 2oz Tub

NO-OX-ID "A-SPECIAL Electrical Grade" is the electrical contact grease of choice for new electrical installations and maintenance.
 NO-OX-ID electrical contact lubricant is an electrically conductive grease that keeps metals free from rust and corrosion.
This electrical contact grease has been used in the power industry for over 65 years to prevent corrosion in electrical connectors from low micro-power electronics
to high voltage switchgear. NO-OX-ID A-Special is RoHS compliant!

NO-OX-ID electrical grease prevents the formation of oxides, sulfides and other corrosion deposits on copper, aluminum, and steel surfaces and conductors.

 The purpose of an electrical contact lubricant is to prevent corrosion and lubricate the connection for easier maintenance.

NO-OX-ID "A-Special" electrical grease prevents corrosion attack on all metal surfaces. Attack can come from battery acid, salt,

moisture and various industrial chemical vapors in the environment. When this conductive paste is used on aluminum connectors in joints,

NO-OX-ID "A-Special" prevents the reformation of oxide films, which cause high resistance and subsequent failures.

NO-OX-ID A-Special conductive grease is recommended by connector manufacturers for trouble-free joint connections.

When nuts, mounting bolts, and cotter keys are coated with NO-OX-ID "A-Special", they will never rust or freeze assuring you easy, trouble-free removal.

NO-OX-ID "A-Special" should be used wherever the formation of a corrosive product will affect the proper functioning of the metal surface.

This electrical contact grease is easily applied, easily removed, and gives long lasting reliable performance even on dissimilar metals.



BIN is for one 2oz tub

Any questions Please ask.

[peteski]

Ah, those descriptions are clear as mud!     The electric conductivity is only mentioned in the Electrical Grease section. All the other descriptions only state that they prevnent oxides and corrosion (corrosion is oxidation).    With descriptions like that, no wonder there is confusion.

[Steveruger45]

Hi again Pete,
I just looked at that mfg link you posted. I didn’t realize they made so many different grades of NoOxId.
It was easy for us at sea all those years ago as we only got the “A-Special” and no other NoOxId was ever supplied. Plus we always got this included / supplied with the electrical spares and stores shipments.  In case your not familiar, ships always had their supplies segregated by ship departments, I guess otherwise the cook might think of using it instead of butter when cooking or the deck crew would use it to grease winches and mooring spring or winch wires perhaps.  We were always told this stuff is expensive so use it sparingly.
Anyhow, from my last post you can see it is the conductive electrical grade one I have ordered now.  My first plan is to smear the long copper loco contact strips and where these sit in the frame and the truck nubs that touch the contact strips.  See how this goes ( I’m pretty confident this will be perfectly fine based on past experience and after all these are just electrical contacts). What I am less sure of is putting it on the track itself.  While I am sure it will improve the oxidation situation I am not so certain there would not be loss of traction, after all it is a grease/lubricant.
Anyhow, I will do a section of the layout where I have a 2% grade and see.  I can always clean it off again.

[peteski]

Steve, I'm not really upset with you personally. But I often hear model railroaders touting lubricant conductivity where there is none.  I like your idea of using this stuff at the point where the truck sideframe's metal nub contacts the flat electric pickup strip.  What I do in that area is to sand and polish the area of that nub where it contacts the pickup strip. I use a fingernail sanding stick (progressively using all 4 grits).  It works really well for this, even without taking the truck apart.



Then I use a buffing wheel mounted in my rotary tool and a a bit of polishing compound to make the mating surfaces mirror-smooth.  The polishing compound seems to leave some sort of anti-oxidation coating on the metal, but adding some NoOxID would also give some additional protections.  The polished metal surfaces provide very reliable electrical contact.

[Steveruger45]

Pete
I am not offended by your comments at all.  Vigorous discussion is how we learn from each other.  I actually also get my knickers in a twist at certain folklore that has no basis in fact or common sense.
I like your way of cleaning up the strip to nub contact. I have just been using 2000 grit wet dry paper on these areas, but it soon oxides in my humid environment.  The NoOxId will help a great deal with this issue.

[peteski]

Pete
I am not offended by your comments at all.  Vigorous discussion is how we learn from each other.  I actually also get my knickers in a twist at certain folklore that has no basis in fact or common sense.
I like your way of cleaning up the strip to nub contact. I have just been using 2000 grit wet dry paper on these areas, but it soon oxides in my humid environment.  The NoOxId will help a great deal with this issue.

I guess we all have something that irks up. 

The reason I use the 4-way nail buffer is because those truck nubs have fairly rough surface from being sheared from a solid sheet of brass.  Starting with a 4000 grit abrasive will smooth the surface, but there will still be lots of pits between the smooth peaks.  Going through all 4 grits of the nail buffer results in much smoother surface.  I just figured that "grime" might accumulate in the pitted surface decreasing the contact reliability.