Author Topic: Mysteries of the new LokSound in the Intermountain SD40-2  (Read 22891 times)

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tehachapifan

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Re: Mysteries of the new LokSound in the Intermountain SD40-2
« Reply #75 on: March 05, 2017, 11:54:05 AM »
0
SP never owned any SD40-2's, only SD40's.

jagged ben

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Re: Mysteries of the new LokSound in the Intermountain SD40-2
« Reply #76 on: March 05, 2017, 11:58:58 AM »
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SP never owned any SD40-2's, only SD40's.

...and SD40T-2s.

carlso

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Re: Mysteries of the new LokSound in the Intermountain SD40-2
« Reply #77 on: March 05, 2017, 12:10:41 PM »
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Thank you Russ and jb.

I have 40's and the 40-T's so I am OK.

Carl
Carl Sowell
El Paso, Texas

Xmtrman

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Re: Mysteries of the new LokSound in the Intermountain SD40-2
« Reply #78 on: March 05, 2017, 01:29:17 PM »
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I have a quick question for you. Wasn't the SP a large purchaser of SD-40-2's ? I have not seen any SP shells from IM, have I missed some posting ?

Carl

According to Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EMD_SD40-2 , SP was not a purchaser of SD40-2s.

They did, however, buy quite a few SD40T-2 tunnel motor variants https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EMD_SD40T-2 which IM has modeled in the past...and future.


JanesCustomTrain

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Re: Mysteries of the new LokSound in the Intermountain SD40-2
« Reply #79 on: March 05, 2017, 03:04:50 PM »
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I have a quick question for you. Wasn't the SP a large purchaser of SD-40-2's ? I have not seen any SP shells from IM, have I missed some posting ?

Carl, SP ended up with a large fleet of SD40M-2s but these are all rebuilt SD40s and SD45s.

Jane
I don't want to start any blasphemous rumors
But I think that God's got a sick sense of humor
And when I die I expect to find Him laughing...

James Costello

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Re: Mysteries of the new LokSound in the Intermountain SD40-2
« Reply #80 on: March 05, 2017, 06:38:57 PM »
+1
Carl, SP ended up with a large fleet of SD40M-2s but these are all rebuilt SD40s and SD45s.

Jane

And a couple of ex-EL SDP45s in the SD40M-2 conversions for good completeness.
James Costello
Espee into the 90's

Spades

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Re: Mysteries of the new LokSound in the Intermountain SD40-2
« Reply #81 on: March 05, 2017, 06:55:11 PM »
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SP never owned any SD40-2's, only SD40's.

Russ 

I believe i read that the T-2 is a modeler addition.  The longer frame and the the modified radiator section to EMD/SP they were SD40-2 and SD45-2 models variant. 

From the espeerailfan.net website.

 SP has never had 'production' SD40-2's as produced by Athearn. SP bought the SD40T-2 Tunnel Motor variant instead. EMD apparently now does recognize this designation!
and NOW that railroad known as "Unlimited Parking" designates these as SD40-2T's - really!

SD40-2T came about after the demise off the SP/DRGW

SP has never had 'production' SD45-2's as produced by Rail Power Products. SP bought the SD45T-2 Tunnel Motor variant instead. EMD doesn't recognize this designation either, they call all the variants SD45-2's, which tends to cause confusion.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2017, 06:57:26 PM by Spades »

James Costello

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Re: Mysteries of the new LokSound in the Intermountain SD40-2
« Reply #82 on: March 05, 2017, 09:41:56 PM »
+1
I believe i read that the T-2 is a modeler addition.  The longer frame and the the modified radiator section to EMD/SP they were SD40-2 and SD45-2 models variant. 

For the sake of this discussion, Espee never had the classic SD40-2 carbody locomotives, or the SD45-2.

Yes, they had a variant with a longer frame and a modified radiator section, that the railroad and notable historians such as Joe Strapac and Don Strack have consistently called the SD40T-2 and SD45T-2. This is not just a modelers terminology. 

Bear in mind that the page on Richard's site you have referred to is over 10 years old and as such, his commentary may not be the most current source of information. 
James Costello
Espee into the 90's

peteski

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Re: Mysteries of the new LokSound in the Intermountain SD40-2
« Reply #83 on: March 05, 2017, 10:08:06 PM »
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LOL, this is a thread dedicated specifically to the LokSound decoder (not the the entire model or the prototype).   :facepalm: :trollface:
. . . 42 . . .

tehachapifan

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Re: Mysteries of the new LokSound in the Intermountain SD40-2
« Reply #84 on: March 06, 2017, 02:25:29 AM »
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For clarification, when I said SP only had SD40's, I was referring to the one loco that could be easily mistaken for an SD40-2, as Carlso alluded to. The rest, while variants of the SD40-2, really bear no resemblance at all (save for a SD40M-2 with an SD40 carbody).

« Last Edit: March 06, 2017, 02:29:04 AM by tehachapifan »

PRB

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Re: Mysteries of the new LokSound in the Intermountain SD40-2
« Reply #85 on: March 07, 2017, 02:50:53 PM »
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Does anyone know where I can find more detailed definitions of the Logical and Modifier functions such as Acceleration, Heavy Load, Uncoupling Cycle, etc.?

ntex

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Re: Mysteries of the new LokSound in the Intermountain SD40-2
« Reply #86 on: March 10, 2017, 07:08:10 AM »
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Have you tried searching the conversations in this Yahoo group?
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/loksound/info
Hopefully you kind find some information on it.

Steve Fass

peteski

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Re: Mysteries of the new LokSound in the Intermountain SD40-2
« Reply #87 on: March 11, 2017, 01:37:15 AM »
+7
Back to the reason this thread was started.  :)

UPDATE:    In March 2018 I have updated this post to include the of the function mapping of the (AUX) outputs at the bottom of the post. I have also created a separate thread (in the DCC/Electronics section) covering this decoder, and also ESU 54650 and 73100 See https://www.therailwire.net/forum/index.php?topic=44324.0

John asked me to figure out the best spot for attaching stay-alive capacitors or a keep-alive module.

I cleared some room on my crowded workbench to do some snooping around the decoder's circuitry.  Many of the components are tiny, and so close together, that I had to construct couple of really fine probes. I used sawing needles for the tips and a flexible 30AWG decoder wire for the leads.


ESU_NeedleProbes.jpg

Here are my findings.


ESU_73199_Sound_decoder.png

For those who are interested I also drew a partial schematic diagram of the decoder. This decoder's design is different and more complex from other sound decoders I have dealt with in the past.  It has a power supply circuit with 3 voltage stages where a stay-alive caps or keep-alive module could be hooked up.

Stage 1: Raw rectified track voltage (marked "A" or RED on the diagram). This stage supplies power to the motor driver circuit and to the next voltage stage (described below).  This is where one of the Super-Cap-based keep-alive circuits could be installed to keep both, the decoder's electronics, and the motor running during power dropouts.  This stage includes what looks like a Zener diode (for over-voltage protection?) and a very small ceramic capacitor (probably less than 1uF in value, to shunt any voltage spikes coming from the track).

Stage 2: (marked "B" or PURPLE on the diagram). The voltage from stage 1 is passed through a diode (same type of diode as used in the rectifier) to become stage 2. This stage has five multilayer ceramic caps used as a small stay-alive circuit (totaling probably around 200uF, but since they are unmarked I don't know their exact value).  The voltage from this stage is then supplied to stage 3, and probably to few other circuits on the decoder (I didn't do a thorough trace to check what else is powered from this stage).  As shown on the diagram, the voltage in this stage is just few tenths lower than the raw rectified voltage of stage 1.

Stage 3: (marked as "C" or BLUE on the diagram). Voltage from stage 2 is supplied to a 5.4V regulator which produces the stage 3 voltage.  There are couple of 100uF tantalum caps in this stage to act as a filter/keep-alive. This stage supplies power to most of the decoder's circuitry, including the audio amplifier.  There are also couple more voltages derived from 5.4V. One is 5.1V (not sure where it is used) and then 3V which powers the "brains" of the decoder (the microcontroller and the Flash memory chip).  The voltage from this stage is also used as the common positive for all the on-board AUX functions (including the V+ solder pad).  It appears that the designers of this decoder decided to use the 5.4V as the BLUE common-positive (instead of the usual 12V used on majority of other decoders).

The tantalum caps in stage 3 (200uF total) do provide minimal protection from short-duration power dropouts, and there is around 200uF worth of capacitors in stage 2, so we can't really say that the decoder has no stay-alives.  But all of this results in an absolutely bare minimum of the stay-alive capacitance.

Ground (common) of the decoder is marked on the diagram as "N".

Where to attach stay-alive capacitors, or a keep-alive SuperCap module?

The bottom part of the diagram above shows both sides of the decoder with color-coded locations of where the external caps can be installed.  The green circles indicate that the large copper areas are all connected to ground (common).

A capacitor can be installed with its negative lead attached to any of the green-marked areas or component pads.  The positive lead can be hooked up to any of the red-marked pads (for stage1), or purple-marked pads (for stage 2).  While I also show a pads for stage 3 (blue-marked pads), I do not think that any additional caps installed in stage 3 will be helpful.

When adding a true Super-Cap-based keep-alive circuit (hundreds of thousands of micro Farads with its built-in ancillary circuitry to limit the charging current and voltage) it should be attached to green and red marked pads of the decoder. If placed there, it will power the decoder's electronics, motor and the function outputs. Since the RED pads on the decoder are very small and close to other components, one must be super-careful not to damage any components while adding the keep-alive circuit.

If the additional caps are less than 1000uF in total capacitance then my recommendation would be to attach them to the green and purple marked pads of the decoder.  Since the current-robbing motor is not powered from that stage, the keep-alive cap will supply power to the decoder for a longer time. Hopefully the flywheels will keep the loco coasting through the intermittent contact spot while the decoder keeps on running and producing its sounds.

Of course, any modification to the decoder are done at your own risk - it is highly miniaturized and delicate.

For those interested in more details, here are the locations of some of the decoder's main components.


ESU_73199_Sound_decoder_layout.png

I found it interesting that the rectifier diodes used in this decoder have a very low forward voltage drop (only 0.2V).  But I only tested it with minimal load so the voltage drop will most likely increase as the current draw increases. Still, they are probably Shottky diodes with the average voltage drop of around 0.5V or less.

MAP OF THE FUNCTION OUTPUTS AND THEIR SOLDER PADS


ESU_73199_Sound_decoder_functions.png

The above picture is self explanatory.

If someone wants to simply relocate the on-board LEDs while still using the on-board 680 ohm resistors, then simply unsolder the SMD LED from the PC board, then solder the wire lead extensions to the LED pads.  The LED polarity (anode or positive [A] and cathode or negative [C]) is indicated in the picture.

Instead of calling those outputs "functions", like most DCC manufacturers do, ESU calls them "AUX" outputs.  This is likely due to the fact that all these outputs can easily be mapped to any DCC function.  The mapping feature on the ESU decoders is much more flexible than on most typical DCC decoders from American manufacturers.  I highly recommend thoroughly reading the ESU decoder manual to get familiar with AUX output mappings.  While the mapping can be done by individually programming a bunch of CVs on DCC system's programming track, this task is made *MUCH* easier using the ESU's LokProgrammer interface and software.

I hope that this answers your questions John.  :)
« Last Edit: March 24, 2018, 01:55:22 AM by peteski »
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RAILCAT

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Re: Mysteries of the new LokSound in the Intermountain SD40-2
« Reply #88 on: March 11, 2017, 03:08:10 AM »
0

Thank you Peteski for your efforts in discovering the inner workings of the ESU decoder.





jdcolombo

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Re: Mysteries of the new LokSound in the Intermountain SD40-2
« Reply #89 on: March 11, 2017, 08:40:19 AM »
+1
Thanks, Peteski.  Yeah that pretty much answers all the questions ;).

I've found that adding 440uf of keeper capacity to the LokSound Select Micro helps both with sound dropouts AND momentary motor stutter that isn't really solved by a flywheel alone.  Even without a supercap-type installation, I think a modest amount of keep alive at the Stage 1 level would be useful, particularly since the sound circuits already have a little bit (200uf).  By feeding Stage 1, you give some additional help to Stage 2 as well as the motor circuit.  Yeah, 440uf isn't much, but it's really pretty amazing what a difference it makes assuming the wheels and track are already reasonably clean.  I got this message again yesterday, when I was working with a friend to do an updated video of the layout; I wanted to film a set of RS-11's moving in the yard (at very low speed), and of course my sound unit kept stuttering, despite cleaning the track (several times!).  I realized later that this was one of my very early sound installs that didn't use any keeper caps.  So on the bench it went, two 220uf caps went in, and after the surgery, the dropouts were gone.  At really slow speeds, where the caps are probably most useful, the motor really isn't pulling much current anyway - in fact at 5-10 smph, I'd bet the sound circuits are pulling more current than the motor.  If they are operating at 5.3v and outputting 200mw from the audio amp, that's probably more than the motor running at 5-10 smph, which is probably under 4v and pulling less than 100mw.

I think that adding that kind of keep alive at that small diode south of the bridge rectifier probably wouldn't be too hard, but this kind of surgery will require appropriate soldering equipment (e.g., a 15-watt iron with as small a tip as one can possibly find).  The Pace soldering station you recommended should make quick work of a project like this.

John C.