Author Topic: Small Milling Machine and Accessories recommendation needed  (Read 8600 times)

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jdcolombo

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Small Milling Machine and Accessories recommendation needed
« on: October 04, 2016, 10:47:26 AM »
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Hi folks.

I'm not sure if this is the right forum to ask this question, but I'll let the mods move it if need be.

I'm thinking about getting a small milling machine to help with my sound installation projects - mostly to mill the frames for the speaker and decoder (right now, I use a dremel with a cutoff wheel, not exactly the fastest or most precise method).  I'm looking at the Micro Mark R8 milling machine.   However, never having owned a machine tool of any kind before, I have lots of questions.  Here are the questions, and I'd appreciate any help any of you can offer.

1.  Are there other milling machine models I should consider given what I'm likely to use it for?
2.  If I get the Micro Mark R8, what accessories do I need to buy immediately to do the kinds of frame milling I'm contemplating? (e.g., what kind of mills?  What kind of table or vise or whatever it is that you use to hold things to be milled?  Etc.)
3.  What accessories would be "nice to have" but not needed immediately?
4.  Is it possible to use a milling machine to thin down the sides of a shell from the inside (right now, I do that using a 1/4" sanding drum in a Dremel)?  Has anyone actually tried this?

I'm not necessarily looking for the cheapest alternative.  While I like to save money as much as the next guy, I value reliability and making sure I have the right tool for the job.  Rather spend more and have exactly what I need than spend less and then wish I'd spent more!

Thanks for the help!

John Colombo


rrjim1

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Re: Small Milling Machine and Accessories recommendation needed
« Reply #1 on: October 04, 2016, 12:03:23 PM »
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You might want to check out Sherline.  I use a Sherline Lathe with a milling column. I have used Sherline products for years, very high quality products made in the US. If you purchase a Milling Machine Package it comes with everything that is needed to get started.
The hardest part would be finding a secure way to holding the body. 

jdcolombo

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Re: Small Milling Machine and Accessories recommendation needed
« Reply #2 on: October 04, 2016, 12:26:22 PM »
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You might want to check out Sherline.  I use a Sherline Lathe with a milling column. I have used Sherline products for years, very high quality products made in the US. If you purchase a Milling Machine Package it comes with everything that is needed to get started.
The hardest part would be finding a secure way to holding the body.

The Sherline looks great!  And the basic mill is actually cheaper than the MicroMark.  Plus I like the fact I can get a whole package with all the basics at once.

For the shells, I only need to thin an area that is about 25mm long - usually at the rear of the shell - to make room for the ESU LokSound decoder.  (I am hopeful this issue will go away soon, when ESU releases its long-rumored "drop in" sound board for N scale diesels).   I was thinking that I could cut a piece of wood that would fit inside the front of shell (leaving room at the rear for the thinning), and the wood insert would allow me to clamp the shell in some sort of vise (using some foam or cloth on the outside of the vise jaws to avoid marring the shell).  I usually need to thin the shell only by a tenth of a mm or so on each side, and was thinking that this would be far easier to do and much more precise with a milling machine than with a 1/4" sanding drum in an Dremel.  But like I said, this is a problem that may go away soon, so it is less of a concern than doing frame milling.

John C.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2016, 12:48:50 PM by jdcolombo »

garethashenden

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Re: Small Milling Machine and Accessories recommendation needed
« Reply #3 on: October 04, 2016, 01:16:58 PM »
+1
To clamp the shell you need to have something inside it to prevent it's collapse when you tighten the vise. A block of wood could work well, the material shouldn't matter too much, it just needs to be a good fit. For the jaws, I would avoid cloth. One of the most important things about machining is that it works best when the machine is square and level. I feel that there is too much chance of a cloth being uneven. "Soft" vice jaws usually means aluminum or brass, but I found some plastic ones on ebay. http://www.ebay.com/itm/Padded-Magnetic-Soft-TPU-Vise-Jaw-4-2pc-Set-Pad-Attachment-Non-Marring-Gunsmith-/371067019025
I have no experience with those, but they may be worth trying out. Of course, try it on something you're not invested in first, an old boxcar would be good.

One potential issue is the reach of the endmill. I'd go for the biggest mill that fits in the shell personally. It will be more rigid and longer, allowing you to get all the way into the shell. Small diameter endmills tend to be quite short as well.

One final idea. If your budget reaches to it, get a DRO or Digital Read Out. It makes it much easier to know exactly where you are.

bbussey

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Re: Small Milling Machine and Accessories recommendation needed
« Reply #4 on: October 04, 2016, 01:59:51 PM »
+1
I have a Sherline 2000 with the FlashCut add-ons that turn it into a CNC.  I use it for brass, plastic and wax milling.  Very pleased with it.

I also use double-sided tape to hold most ot the articles to the table.  I clamp large brass or wax plates.
Bryan Busséy
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mmagliaro

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Re: Small Milling Machine and Accessories recommendation needed
« Reply #5 on: October 04, 2016, 02:01:06 PM »
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Milling out a plastic shell
Yes, a block of wood to put inside it is a must.  One thing you will quickly find out using a mill is that anything that
is not very firmly held down will either:

a) Mill horribly, with tears and cuts all over it, or just plain mill crooked   -- if you are lucky
b) Vault across the room, possible in pieces, possibly into your face or eye if you are really unlucky

I am by no means a milling "expert".  I have just felt my way along.  I use an older version of that Micro Mark mill.
Mine has an MT3 spindle, not the R8.  The R8 is better because there are a lot more accessories available that fit
an R8 taper and they are less expensive than things that fit the MT3 (Morse Taper 3).

As for choices of end mills:
I use 2-flute or 4-flute.  The 4-flute make a slightly smoother finish, but they do not clear chips as well as the 2.
But frankly, for 100% of the milling I do, which mean model train stuff in brass, aluminum, mild steel, and plastic,
I haven't seen it make one bit of difference on chip clearing, so I tend to get 4-flute.  We in the little train world
are just not milling anything tough enough that it matters.  At least, that's my opinion.

I use HSS (high speed steel) mills whenever possible.  Carbide are harder and sharper, but they are more brittle.
And again, for the soft stuff we tend to be milling, I'd rather have the HSS bits that don't break as easily.

When you get down to very small end mills (like 3/64", 1/32", or smaller, they are only available in carbide,
so you just have to get what you can.

For doing your plastic shells, you may find that putting a Dremel sanding drum in the mill will work great - maybe even better
than the cutter and with less stress on the shell.  In that application, you are not milling for precision.  You just need to
"take off some plastic" to make room for your decoder.

Other things you will almost surely want:

1. milling vise
2. clamp/hold-down set
3. a good 3-jaw chuck (because lots of times, it will be quite fine to use this for drilling, and you can even mill
with a simple chuck for all the light work we do)
4. parallels (precision, thin steel plates for supporting your work
5. end mills - probably want to start with some 1/16", 1/8", and 1/4".  Get standard length (not stub or "long").

That ought to be enough to get you started.  There is so much to this, you will need to experiment for a while to discover what you really like and need.

Other things I really like having.
6. Dial indicator - very useful for making sure the mill itself is set up true and square, and for measuring your
work when you are doing precise milling

And you may eventually want a good collet chuck that fits the machine you get (R8, or whatever your spindle taper is)
and a set of collets.  These will hold the end mills much more precisely than a 3-jaw chuck.
I have a collet set, but I am not entirely happy with mine.  While it holds the mills great, it's a little less
true than the chuck... but that's a weird situation.  Normally, you should find that a collet chuck and collets will
get you better cuts than a chuck.

Alternatively, you can just get endmill holders.  These are tapered sleeves designed to fit into your R8 (or other) spindle
directly, and hold the end mill.  You have to get a holder for each diameter endmill shank you buy, so you will probably
need endmill holders for 1/16, 1/8, and 1/4 at least, to start.

Hmmm what else?

OH!  DEFINITELY check out the little machine shop!

Here's a page of milling tool packages they sell, so you can easily get a nice assortment of stuff you will need
in one package, no matter where you end up buying your mill.

http://littlemachineshop.com/products/product_focus.php?Focus=Tooling+Packages&Source=GoogleStartKits&device=c&keyword=tooling%20small%20lathe&utm_medium=referral&gclid=CIzVkaDcwc8CFRdahgodUS8CqA

The also sell mills. Generally, these are the same China-made mills that everybody sells (Micromark, Grizzly, and others),
but LMS will have it set up and adjusted for you, and they also put nice upgrades on their mills,

Here's the X2 they sell with an R8 spindle, and a 3-jaw chuck included.
http://littlemachineshop.com/products/product_view.php?ProductID=4962&category=1387807683

This has a solid column (doesn't tilt side-to-side... because almost nobody ever needs to do that,
and it makes the mill more rigid and less needful of adjustment), and the air-spring vertical column support
(much better than a torsion spring, which tends to let the head drop a little unexpectedly sometimes).

==================
Whew.... that's my $.02.

Good luck.





jdcolombo

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Re: Small Milling Machine and Accessories recommendation needed
« Reply #6 on: October 04, 2016, 02:10:03 PM »
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Hi Max.

Wow.  Thanks so much for that.  Yeah I was wondering about this "tilting head" stuff - I can't ever imagine needing to do that.  For the stuff I'm doing, it would just be straight-on cuts to mill down the frame and perhaps take a little off the inside of the shell.  I hadn't thought about using a Dremel sanding drum attached to a milling machine for my shells, but . . . yeah, that sounds promising for what I need to do.

I'm pretty sure I'm going to get a mill.  I've still got quite a few diesels to do installs in, and the "cutoff wheel in a Dremel" just isn't going to cut it (pun intended) anymore . . .

John

reinhardtjh

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Re: Small Milling Machine and Accessories recommendation needed
« Reply #7 on: October 04, 2016, 03:48:59 PM »
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John,

  I had asked some questions about CNC milling machines a little over a year ago and some of that information may be helpful to you as well.  https://www.therailwire.net/forum/index.php?topic=36681.0

There are a few links to other topics about milling in that topic as well.

I haven't bought anything yet.  Budgetary considerations have pushed it off.  I'm still hoping in the next year I might get something though.
John H. Reinhardt
PRRT&HS #8909
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narrowminded

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Re: Small Milling Machine and Accessories recommendation needed
« Reply #8 on: October 04, 2016, 04:19:55 PM »
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This question was asked on another forum and I answered there.  As there seems to be more activity as well as likely more interst/ experience from those responding, I just copied my other post and pasted it here.  Hope it's of some value to all participating. :)

One of those R-8 machines would be the first choice for a general use around the shop machine if you were building hot rods at home or maintenance work where 1/4", 1/2", and up would be your typical cutter size and part envelope dimensions could be measured in whole inches. Because we are often working at 1/8" cuts and down with parts being measured at a few inches and down, another machine you could consider from both a cost standpoint as well as weight and storage, is the Proxxon brand, with two choices depending on actual use. One is the MF-70 mill and the other is the MB-200 drill press with a Proxxon hand tool (IBS/E is what I chose) that uses the same collets, and add the KT-70 table, same as the table on the mill, purchased as an accessory. The biggest downside to the drill press option is achieving accurate depth control but it can be done, albeit clumsy. Also, squaring the angle adjustable head for true square cuts can be a little clumsy but not such a drawback and requires techniques you will eventually want to be familiar with for some other accurate setups. I have both rigs.

The main reason to go this route (either one) is the high spindle speeds for small cutters (up to 20,000 RPM), the absolute key to proper/ successful milling. The down side is you can only use cutters with a maximum shank of 1/8" which basically means a maximum cutter diameter of 1/8" but it also means that almost any Dremel type tooling can be used in either rig (and when appropriate). Specials are available that go up to maybe 1/4" in carbide drills and maybe 4 mm or so in end mills but you can very rapidly find yourself with too much speed in steel, reaching the limit in brass or aluminum, and a basic machine rigidity problem as the cutter diameter exceeds 1/8".

Because this will be used for small scale modelling the cutter diameter will generally be appropriate at 1/8" and down as you have the option of taking multiple passes when a milled surface must be wider than 1/8". And if you need to drill larger holes you can drill pilots to set the accuracy of your pattern layout and then open them up in another machine. No matter which you buy, if you have only one machine, there WILL be compromises. No one machine performs ALL of the functions well.

I went through these same deliberations when considering a home machine (having access to "real" machines when needed) for one off prototyping and modifications working on my miniature chassis and small needs encountered in general modelling. I chose these two Proxxon models based largely on the spindle speeds because I would be milling with some very small cutters and would be routinely breaking them without sufficient spindle speeds, aside from questionable finish quality. If you were to chose the Proxxon machine I could add some more details about general use and setup, especially setting the gibs for table play. I have both the mill and drill press style, have done milling in both, and am satisfied with the performance while amazed at the accuracy I can achieve with them. And while the whole machine matters it's the cutter speeds that are key to that performance and resulting satisfaction. That also requires much less rigidity which is another key reason that such a light machine has a chance when rigidity is the normal and legitimate criteria when selecting any machine tool.. Afterall, how much side force can you put on a .015", .030" cutter without breaking it?

Minimum parts to order for estimating cost are:
1) The machine, which comes with collets and a few step clamps.
2) The steel precision vice that they offer. Don't deliberate that one, just get it.
3) A set of carbide end mills. They offer a 1, 2, and 3 mm set at a reasonable cost.
4) Carbide drills with 1/8" shank, often available as circuit board drills. (These will be one of your costliest surprises.)
5) If you choose the drill press option you will also need the X/ Y table and a motorized tool. I chose the IBS/E.

Hope that helps. Ask more especially if you choose this option.
Mark G.

narrowminded

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Re: Small Milling Machine and Accessories recommendation needed
« Reply #9 on: October 04, 2016, 04:34:51 PM »
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I also use double-sided tape to hold most ot the articles to the table.

Might seem a little weird but that's an option for holding a plastic shell or flat plastic or metal parts where the cutter load will be small.  The key is the small cutter load.
Mark G.

bbussey

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Re: Small Milling Machine and Accessories recommendation needed
« Reply #10 on: October 04, 2016, 04:45:19 PM »
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It's extremely strong double-sided tape (I don't remember the brand name at the moment), but yes no large diameter cutters or deep depth on the passes.  In N scale, that isn't an issue.
Bryan Busséy
NHRHTA #2246
NSE #1117
www.bbussey.net


narrowminded

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Re: Small Milling Machine and Accessories recommendation needed
« Reply #11 on: October 04, 2016, 05:05:18 PM »
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Another option for holding hollow, delicate shapes or machining pockets leaving very thin sections is low temp melt metal (120F, 135F).  They are available from places like RotoMetal.  Hot water will melt them and most plastics can stand +/- 200F.  Machine one pocket, skip one, machine the next, etc.  Fill those pockets with the low temp melt and go back and take out the skipped ones, leaving the delicate feature between them.  Boil the metal out and save for next time.
Mark G.

nightmare0331

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Re: Small Milling Machine and Accessories recommendation needed
« Reply #12 on: October 04, 2016, 05:06:17 PM »
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http://www.grizzly.com/products/6-x-21-Mill-Drill/G0619?utm_campaign=zPage

Buy once, cry once.

You'll find yourself using a mill for far more then model train frames and at some point will kick yourself for not going larger as invariably almost everyone I know who's bought a mill has tested the size limits of it at some point.

Expect to spend at least several hundred on assorted tooling (vice, fixturing, collets, end mills, etc)

Making chips is fun!

Enjoy!

Kelley.
www.dufordmodelworks.com

narrowminded

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Re: Small Milling Machine and Accessories recommendation needed
« Reply #13 on: October 04, 2016, 05:07:28 PM »
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It's extremely strong double-sided tape (I don't remember the brand name at the moment), but yes no large diameter cutters or deep depth on the passes.  In N scale, that isn't an issue.

Carpet tape might work.  Too strong and it may destroy paint or decals.  I have used lighter, basic cellophane tape, but the cuts were truly light and the surface area at the tape joint was fairly large.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2016, 05:12:03 PM by narrowminded »
Mark G.

narrowminded

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Re: Small Milling Machine and Accessories recommendation needed
« Reply #14 on: October 04, 2016, 05:17:14 PM »
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Avoid the round column bench top mill/ drills.  You'll eventually find you need to change a cutter and raise or lower the head.  Once loosened, the head has lost orientation and that's a real pain to deal with.  Finding zero again will be the longest five minutes of your life. :P
Mark G.