DCC and innovation stagnation

[peteski]

BTW I've never even held a DCC controller or ran a train with it, but I know my TV remote sucks balls.

Let the down votes commence! 

Up-vote for you!

Some people are gadget-whores and the more buttons the better!    But seriously, when you do have sound-equipped model, you will play with few more buttons (but not all 28 functions DCC is capable of). At least I never seen anybody seriously use them all (other then try couple of times to see experience the sound effect).

As far as cab simulator, if you had a live-video from the loco camera you could wire up a life-size cab with all the controls like the real train.  I'm pretty sure this has been done already. SO then you have a train simulator running on a physical layout.

[C855B]

Guys, there are two needs here - basic throttles to control a train, and complex throttles to control a layout, including possibly multiple trains. Both are valid.

Smartphone apps muddy this distinction, but if one were to, say, coerce or otherwise convince the developers of WiThrottle and Engine Driver to add compatibility with Tuna Knobs or similar, we could possibly strike a happy medium with wanting a physical knob to twist.

I've said it before and will say it again: electromechanical human interfaces are by far the most expensive component in electronic design, especially in small quantities dictated by a niche market. The Europeans may be light years ahead in throttle ergonomics, but from what I've seen so far, at a hefty premium.

[VonRyan]

I saw it on Facebook awhile back, but I forget what it's called. There's a Wi-Fi only DCC system that costs only $99.
No throttles, just your phone and their black box hooked up to your layout. I can't remember much about it since it has no use to me since all the layouts/clubs I run on are Digitrax.

[TLOC]

Scott Thornton is developing a throttle you guys might like. Designed to "utilizes a Raspberry Pi module which in tandem with JMRI could "talk" with any DCC system thus eliminating the necessity of having the throttle be customized for each particular DCC system".

http://model-railroad-hobbyist.com/node/25866

This maybe the WiFI system you saw on FB.

http://www.wicommand.com

I have looked at the ESU command control system and while innovative, user friendly, great throttles is IMO excessively priced. But as we know, you get what u pay for!

http://www.esu.eu/en/start

TomO

[C855B]

... http://model-railroad-hobbyist.com/node/25866 ...

I think the "8-notch throttle" feature amounts to a "be careful what you wish for". As in the 1:1, this dictates that you are completely hands-on, continually adjusting the throttle in response to conditions. This works against "railfanning"-type layout operation, where you want to find a nuanced throttle setting that allows the train to run on the layout undisturbed, allowing you to sit back and enjoy watching the train(s) roll by.

In other words, notched throttles could be a wonderful and fun accessory for the single-train operator in simulation of the real thing, but the way many (I daresay most) layouts are run, it would be mostly a frustration if used as the sole control means.

[Ed Kapuscinski]

I think the "8-notch throttle" feature amounts to a "be careful what you wish for". As in the 1:1, this dictates that you are completely hands-on, continually adjusting the throttle in response to conditions. This works against "railfanning"-type layout operation, where you want to find a nuanced throttle setting that allows the train to run on the layout undisturbed, allowing you to sit back and enjoy watching the train(s) roll by.

In other words, notched throttles could be a wonderful and fun accessory for the single-train operator in simulation of the real thing, but the way many (I daresay most) layouts are run, it would be mostly a frustration if used as the sole control means.

I also don't think notches are the answer either, although I dig the immersive aspect of it, because of one thing: physics. In the real world, the inertia of big, heavy stuff equalizes things out. There's built in "momentum".  It means that when going from notch 1 to notch 8, there's a smooth increase in speed (hopefully). In N scale, however, a move like that would be like lighting a rocket.

I do think the discussion of the "important" functions here are good though! It pains me that some of the most talented modelers I know are missing out on some of the fun though... but there are commonly more functions required than "speed and change direction". Sound is a huge reason for this, and lighting to a lesser part.

While I don't see the need for the droning on of prime movers, although it is nice at times, horns and bells are part of prototypical operations, and I like using them when the opportunity presents itself. That means that you need a few more buttons.

I think the ideal throttle would be one that properly prioritizes button use in relation to the way you hold it. I like the functionality of the Digitrax 400 series throttles, but think their buttons could be laid out a bit better, and possibly a good number hidden away behind a slide or something.

[jdcolombo]

I think the ideal throttle would be one that properly prioritizes button use in relation to the way you hold it. I like the functionality of the Digitrax 400 series throttles, but think their buttons could be laid out a bit better, and possibly a good number hidden away behind a slide or something.

I've always thought that the Digitrax UT series got this about right.  A nice large knob for speed control; a toggle switch on the top for direction.  8 function buttons in two rows under the knob, with good spacing, with the most important ones (light, F1-bell, F2-horn/whistle, and F3 that you can map as desired) in the top row, easily reachable with your thumb.  Easy to operate one-handed while using an uncoupling tool.

The ESU Mobile Control 2 also seems pretty ergonomic, but so far I've only held one briefly - got one on order to see how it works in a real operating situation (will use it with JMRI).

John C.

[davefoxx]

I've done the smartphone thing on my layout, but I almost never use it.  Let's face it- I'm lazy, so I dislike having to set up the laptop, fire up JMRI, and sync the smart phone.  Then, as pointed out in previous posts in this thread, I'm left with trying to use the touchscreen controls on the phone that are not intuitive or lack fine control.  Also, I really detest consisting on the smartphone.

I'm perfectly fine with my Digitrax DT402D.  I don't find it hard to use, although I can appreciate Chris333's point of view about a lot of buttons.  I do use most of them, though.

DFF

[Ed Kapuscinski]

I've always thought that the Digitrax UT series got this about right.  A nice large knob for speed control; a toggle switch on the top for direction.  8 function buttons in two rows under the knob, with good spacing, with the most important ones (light, F1-bell, F2-horn/whistle, and F3 that you can map as desired) in the top row, easily reachable with your thumb.  Easy to operate one-handed while using an uncoupling tool.

Yep, I agree, except there's one big thing it doesn't have that drives me nuts: indexing on the wheel. I think the little "clicks" are important, and it doesn't have them.

[mmagliaro]

Max, you didn't consider all those little function buttons needed to maximize the fun: headlights, ditch lights, horn (even playable horn), bell, whistle, and all the other fun sound bites people love to play with.  Maybe even remote uncouplers.

Heh... I take the humour of your comment, believe me.  But there is some truth to that.
Okay, granted... we might want to turning the headlight on/off or  blow the whistle (horn?   HORN???? )
So those can be some little pushbuttons off to the side.
I'm still thinking that a 10-digit numeric keypad, speed knob, direction switch, and some effects buttons is
much easier to use than a phone interface.

[Chris333]

Another thing about a touch screen is you really can't do anything without looking down at it. Same thing with touch screens in cars. When driving I bet everyone can reach over and adjust the heat without even looking. Try that when all the controls are on a screen, you are guaranteed to take your eyes off the road because you can't feel the heat button on a flat screen.

[wcfn100]

When driving I bet everyone can reach over and adjust the heat without even looking. Try that when all the controls are on a screen, you are guaranteed to take your eyes off the road because you can't feel the heat button on a flat screen.

Just ask the car to set the temperature. 

Jason

[peteski]

Okay, granted... we might want to turning the headlight on/off or  blow the whistle (horn?   HORN???? )
So those can be some little pushbuttons off to the side.
I'm still thinking that a 10-digit numeric keypad, speed knob, direction switch, and some effects buttons is
much easier to use than a phone interface.

Some steam locos (like UP FEF) had airhorns too. 

I do agree that too many buttons just clutters the handheld throttle, and that a throttle with physical buttons is easier and more intuitive to use than a tough-screen throttle app on a schmart phone.  European systems seem to have the buttons more ergonomically arranged and with clearer markings. But I did get myself a very cheap (IIRC, less than $20 after rebate) smart phone just to use it when the need arises.  It is not activated - just used with WiFi.

[John]

Max, you didn't consider all those little function buttons needed to maximize the fun: headlights, ditch lights, horn (even playable horn), bell, whistle, and all the other fun sound bites people love to play with.  Maybe even remote uncouplers.

Interesting .. but the majority of Nscalers probably don't have those things hooked up .. even the DCC types .. I'm with Max for the 90% solution ..

[John]

I've done the smartphone thing on my layout, but I almost never use it.  Let's face it- I'm lazy, so I dislike having to set up the laptop, fire up JMRI, and sync the smart phone.  Then, as pointed out in previous posts in this thread, I'm left with trying to use the touchscreen controls on the phone that are not intuitive or lack fine control.  Also, I really detest consisting on the smartphone.

I got a raspberry pi automatically booting up, runs JMRI, and is hooked to an old Linksys router / wifi ..  about as self contained as I can get .. for now