Author Topic: CPL Signal Project  (Read 5269 times)

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Wutter

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CPL Signal Project
« on: August 18, 2016, 09:54:58 PM »
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With so much talk about signals recently, I've got to jump in with a signal project I've been working on for a while. B&O CPLs!

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Frets are on order and first test samples will be built up soon. Each fret allows for 4 mast signals to be built in full marker configuration as well as simplified configurations by trimming down parts. As seen on the fret, there are a bunch of extras for easily damaged parts.

Ordered mast boards today:
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Also available right now are base boards for connecting resistors and transitioning from fine magnet wire to 28 gauge wire.

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These will be available for both 0.8mm (1/32") masts and also 1.6mm (1/16") masts. The smaller size masts are less common, although this is what my signals will be using and these are equal to prototypical 5 inch diameter masts in reality. The larger mast hole is common to some other signals that are currently available on the market so I have designed a different board to accommodate for these as well. (Shown in the picture are the boards with larger mast holes)

These PCB base boards are designed to press-fit into 3D printed bases so it will reduce the chances of damaging signals if they are accidentally knocked over. I plan to sell these for $1 each plus $3 shipping within the continental US for however many you are interested in. PM me if you are interested in purchasing base breakout boards for your signals!

Base frames for the breakout boards are available here: http://shpws.me/JIBq

Additional information to come soon!   

« Last Edit: August 22, 2016, 01:56:15 AM by Wutter »
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dcutting

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Re: CPL Signal Project
« Reply #1 on: August 18, 2016, 10:04:16 PM »
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This was going to be my next project, but I ended up working on the darth vader signals. Good thing I did! Looks like the PRR signals and the searchlight signals have really ignited an N Scale signal revolution. I'm excited! I hope these turn out well. Now to wait for more people to jump in on the action...

David

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peteski

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Re: CPL Signal Project
« Reply #2 on: August 19, 2016, 12:06:25 AM »
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Looking good Alvin.
How difficult will it be to form the curvature and solder/glue the hoods to the face of the signal? Something that an average modeler will be able to handle?  Are you using brass or stainless steel for the etchings?  Hopefully it is brass.  :)
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Wutter

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Re: CPL Signal Project
« Reply #3 on: August 19, 2016, 12:24:20 AM »
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It'll be Nickel Silver. Stronger than brass and solderable but not impossible to work with and solder like Stainless.

These hoods are smaller than the ones I have on my Searchlights and Type G's but based on the experience I have with that I don't think they'll be too hard. I'm thinking about even offering these fully assembled if I'm crazy enough.

The only hard part is not going insane after rolling 14 hoods per fully marker equipped signal. There's even an extra 8 hoods per fret in case of mishaps.
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peteski

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Re: CPL Signal Project
« Reply #4 on: August 19, 2016, 01:32:55 AM »
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I wonder if you could just spread some solder paste (stuff used for assembling PC boards with SMD devices) on the joint areas, carefully place all the hoods on the target (which sill be placed on some sort of ceramic or glass panel, the stick it in the oven to solder them all at once.
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C855B

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Re: CPL Signal Project
« Reply #5 on: August 19, 2016, 01:50:00 AM »
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Not a bad idea... however, does a kitchen oven get hot enough to do that? I thought the lowest-temp solder pastes needed 600-650°F. I certainly can be corrected on this.

EDIT: Answered my own question. I found a Sn42/Bi57.6/Ag0.4 paste designed for 4 minutes at 330°. Seeing that you wouldn't be "cooking" semiconductors such as LEDs, I'd say this is a "try it!"
« Last Edit: August 19, 2016, 02:01:44 AM by C855B »
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Wutter

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Re: CPL Signal Project
« Reply #6 on: August 19, 2016, 01:58:06 AM »
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I wonder if you could just spread some solder paste (stuff used for assembling PC boards with SMD devices) on the joint areas, carefully place all the hoods on the target (which sill be placed on some sort of ceramic or glass panel, the stick it in the oven to solder them all at once.

That's certainly something to think about. Technically 60/40 has a melting point of 188C/370F, a quick look on Digikey returns a solder paste with a melting point within range: http://www.chipquik.com/datasheets/SMD291AX.pdf    183C/361F So it's definitely doable.

I was tempted to get a solder mask for the mast target boards but I think that putting down the LEDs shouldn't be too bad even though they are 0402s.

My only concern with the solder paste is if too much is applied, its definitely going to get everywhere on the face or make the board not seat properly. I used a precise air operated nozzle to dispense and reflow boards at work but I feel like most modelers wouldn't have such tools available to them.

We'll see how it goes once the first samples are in, it wouldn't be too bad to glue the hoods as well.
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peteski

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Re: CPL Signal Project
« Reply #7 on: August 19, 2016, 04:43:15 AM »
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My only concern with the solder paste is if too much is applied, its definitely going to get everywhere on the face or make the board not seat properly. I used a precise air operated nozzle to dispense and reflow boards at work but I feel like most modelers wouldn't have such tools available to them.

We'll see how it goes once the first samples are in, it wouldn't be too bad to glue the hoods as well.

I'm really worried that an average modeler will have a very difficult and frustrating experience trying to not only bend the hoods to a specific curvature but then glue or solder those fairly precisely to the signal head.  I not everybody is really adept in precise miniature assembly.

I also think that if solder paste in the oven doesn't work, soldering one at a time is a recipe for disaster. Even using minuscule amounts of epoxy or CA glue might also result in real sloppy assembly. Then, as far as the glue goes, how robust will those glue joints will be for those times operators, or someone cleaning the track accidentally bump the signal?

Lost-wax brass casting for the signal head with integrated hoods would be the best solution. 3-D printed head would also work (as it has been shown recently), but it will be a bit out-of-scale (too thick).  Speaking of thickness, the PC board also looks a bit thick.

Not trying to rain on your parade - just pointing things that migth not be optimal
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robert3985

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Re: CPL Signal Project
« Reply #8 on: August 19, 2016, 06:20:41 AM »
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I'm really worried that an average modeler will have a very difficult and frustrating experience trying to not only bend the hoods to a specific curvature but then glue or solder those fairly precisely to the signal head.  I not everybody is really adept in precise miniature assembly.

I also think that if solder paste in the oven doesn't work, soldering one at a time is a recipe for disaster. Even using minuscule amounts of epoxy or CA glue might also result in real sloppy assembly. Then, as far as the glue goes, how robust will those glue joints will be for those times operators, or someone cleaning the track accidentally bump the signal?

Lost-wax brass casting for the signal head with integrated hoods would be the best solution. 3-D printed head would also work (as it has been shown recently), but it will be a bit out-of-scale (too thick).  Speaking of thickness, the PC board also looks a bit thick.

Not trying to rain on your parade - just pointing things that migth not be optimal

On my scratch-built D-Type Darth Vader signal heads, the easy way to solder the hoods to the signal target is to lightly tin the inside of the back edge of the hood before it's bent to shape, which usually also tins the back edge.  Use a 2B pencil to draw a line about 1/32" from the back edge, flux and tin.  The solder won't cross the pencil line and Supersafe #30 flux gel applied with a micro-brush allows the solder to flow freely and evenly in that small 1/32" space between the pencil line and the back edge of the hood.

I now use my 200W American Beauty resistance soldering station to put mine together to both hold and heat my parts, but I still tin with an iron.  If I were to design and etch a fret of D-type signal head parts, I would have three locator holes etched in the target, and three pins on the back edge of the hood that will register through the locator holes.  These pins would not be tinned and a couple of smooth hemostats clamped on the back would keep the hood tight against the front of the target while flux and solder are applied with a hot, clean iron.

Upon further thought, these pins could also be engineered to be locators for the PCB I assume is being designed for the LED's, and when bent after inserting through matching holes in the PCB...would hold the PCB firmly in place and possibly act as both locators and standoffs for any detailing metal parts that might be applied to the backside of the PCB.

These locator pins would also allow the clean use of CA to assemble the target/PCB/light housing, so the "average" modeler wouldn't have to bother with the highly technical aspects of slobbering...soldering.   :D :trollface:

I also have some ideas how to make better ladders rather than the typical etched POS ladders, and maybe both simplified (typical/POS) ladders could be used for the "average" modeler, and ladders that must be assembled (sides & rungs) for the more detail-oriented modeler could be included on the same fret.

I use hard stainless hypodermic tubing for the masts on D-Type Darth Vader signal heads which aren't mounted on cantilever signal bridges.  These are the correct diameter for signal masts on the UP that I measured with a coat of paint (.036" or 5.75 N-scale inches) and because the tubing walls are much thinner than brass tubing, the hole is the same size (maybe even a bit larger) than those in much larger outer-diameter brass tubing.  Soldering SS is not a problem using the proper flux (Superior Supersafe gel #78) and 96/4 Tin/Silver solder.  The thin walls of everything getting soldered together (platforms, ladders, targets, etc.) will make soldering brass or NS to SS a cinch.

Bending the hoods is easy...just bend them around a proper sized drill bit and adjust their angle and squareness by applying a bit of pressure with your fingers.  Test fit, and adjust...simple...even for an "average modeler".

Truthfully, even without any locator holes, I find assembling and soldering the hoods to the target to be one of the least problematic tasks when building N-scale signal heads out of .003" brass.  The odd-sized attachment/adjuster fixture under the light housing on the back is the hard part

Cheerio!
Bob Gilmore
« Last Edit: August 19, 2016, 06:32:59 AM by robert3985 »

unittrain

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Re: CPL Signal Project
« Reply #9 on: August 19, 2016, 07:00:53 AM »
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I defiantly will be interested in these as I  need B&O and Pennsy  8) Thanks for taking these on!!!

Mark5

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Re: CPL Signal Project
« Reply #10 on: August 19, 2016, 09:21:11 AM »
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Cool. 8)

I am very interested in the electronics aspect here - as N&W (and Amtrak NE corridor) used CPLs but with a larger target.

I really miss the B&O CPLs here in MD.

Mark


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Re: CPL Signal Project
« Reply #11 on: August 19, 2016, 12:28:07 PM »
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Bending the hoods will be easy, but for soldering I do agree will at least be a little bit of a pain.

Peteski, the proto boards I've ordered are a little thick, but I will be getting thinner boards later if everything checks out. The way I'm going to be disguising the boards is that CPLs in real life have a fairly large lip compared to other target type signals. The thickness of the lip is at least a few inches which I think is enough for a thin board when viewed from the back.



I will comment a on few things though, Bob you're definitely not just an average modeler, but most people don't have a resistance soldering iron and find soldering to stainless fairly difficult even with the proper flux and solder. I know that soldering skills will be paramount in assembling these signals cleanly.

I'm definitely going to try your method though when I get parts in...... these have 14 hoods per mast, rather than just 1 or 2 per Type D mast so we'll see how crazy this gets.
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peteski

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Re: CPL Signal Project
« Reply #12 on: August 19, 2016, 03:07:58 PM »
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On my scratch-built D-Type Darth Vader signal heads, the easy way to solder the hoods to the signal target is to lightly tin the inside of the back edge of the hood before it's bent to shape, which usually also tins the back edge.  Use a 2B pencil to draw a line about 1/32" from the back edge, flux and tin.  The solder won't cross the pencil line and Supersafe #30 flux gel applied with a micro-brush allows the solder to flow freely and evenly in that small 1/32" space between the pencil line and the back edge of the hood.

I now use my 200W American Beauty resistance soldering station
to put mine together to both hold and heat my parts, but I still tin with an iron.  If I were to design and etch a fret of D-type signal head parts, I would have three locator holes etched in the target, and three pins on the back edge of the hood that will register through the locator holes.  These pins would not be tinned and a couple of smooth hemostats clamped on the back would keep the hood tight against the front of the target while flux and solder are applied with a hot, clean iron.

Upon further thought, these pins could also be engineered to be locators for the PCB I assume is being designed for the LED's, and when bent after inserting through matching holes in the PCB...would hold the PCB firmly in place and possibly act as both locators and standoffs for any detailing metal parts that might be applied to the backside of the PCB.

These locator pins would also allow the clean use of CA to assemble the target/PCB/light housing, so the "average" modeler wouldn't have to bother with the highly technical aspects of slobbering...soldering.   :D :trollface:

I also have some ideas how to make better ladders rather than the typical etched POS ladders, and maybe both simplified (typical/POS) ladders could be used for the "average" modeler, and ladders that must be assembled (sides & rungs) for the more detail-oriented modeler could be included on the same fret.

I use hard stainless hypodermic tubing for the masts on D-Type Darth Vader signal heads which aren't mounted on cantilever signal bridges.  These are the correct diameter for signal masts on the UP that I measured with a coat of paint (.036" or 5.75 N-scale inches) and because the tubing walls are much thinner than brass tubing, the hole is the same size (maybe even a bit larger) than those in much larger outer-diameter brass tubing.  Soldering SS is not a problem using the proper flux (Superior Supersafe gel #78) and 96/4 Tin/Silver solder.  The thin walls of everything getting soldered together (platforms, ladders, targets, etc.) will make soldering brass or NS to SS a cinch.

Bending the hoods is easy...just bend them around a proper sized drill bit and adjust their angle and squareness by applying a bit of pressure with your fingers.
  Test fit, and adjust...simple...even for an "average modeler".

Truthfully, even without any locator holes, I find assembling and soldering the hoods to the target to be one of the least problematic tasks when building N-scale signal heads out of .003" brass.  The odd-sized attachment/adjuster fixture under the light housing on the back is the hard part

Cheerio!
Bob Gilmore

Those are all great examples and useful tips, but  Bob, you keep forgetting one very important thing:  There are probably less than one in 10,000 of your caliber modelers out there  You are s far ahead of "average modeler" that even what you are imagining to be an average modeler would be way above average.

And I'm not just stating this to butter you up - it is the honest to goodness truth!

To me, if someone is hoping to produce a viable product in a kit form which sells in large quantities (large by the N-scale consumer world standard), it really needs to be easy to assemble.

I also still prefer using thin-wall brass tubing. No special flux, no special solder.  No matter how you look at it, soldering brass will always be easier than soldering stainless steel.
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robert3985

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Re: CPL Signal Project
« Reply #13 on: August 20, 2016, 02:26:48 AM »
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Those are all great examples and useful tips, but  Bob, you keep forgetting one very important thing:  There are probably less than one in 10,000 of your caliber modelers out there  You are s far ahead of "average modeler" that even what you are imagining to be an average modeler would be way above average.

And I'm not just stating this to butter you up - it is the honest to goodness truth!

To me, if someone is hoping to produce a viable product in a kit form which sells in large quantities (large by the N-scale consumer world standard), it really needs to be easy to assemble.

I also still prefer using thin-wall brass tubing. No special flux, no special solder.  No matter how you look at it, soldering brass will always be easier than soldering stainless steel.

Wellll....there are many excellent modelers here at TRW, and I know quite a few who don't frequent this board.  Etched parts are nothin' new, and model railroading's demand for them is much less than the etched detail frets available for airplane, tank, other military and ship modelers.

Contrary to your implication Peter, just because a modeler has grown proficient over the years making models, does not preclude that modeler from giving valid advice to those less experienced.  All of us who can solder started out with rudimentary equipment, materials and knowledge, learned some hard lessons and developed our methodologies and preferences which work well for us.  Most of the advanced modelers I know continue to grow and absorb knowledge about our craft to improve results and make things easier.  By the same side of the coin, most of the "average" modelers I know do the same, on their way to becoming "advanced".

One hard rule to becoming more "advanced" is to be willing to accept new materials and techniques.  I would classify learning how to solder small stainless steel parts as being pretty basic, involving merely buying the proper flux.  Everything else is just good soldering practice.  Frankly, soldering brass is only "easier" to do than soldering SS because you have to expend the effort to buy the correct flux...same solder, same tools, same techniques.

Your assumption that either @Wutter or @dcutting are attempting to produce a kit that appeals to the masses is probably wrong.  The "average" model railroader isn't going to put together dozens of working signals for his/her model railroad.  Most of them will be happy with the RTR, less accurate models already out there (if they even care at all about signals, much less road specific, working signals????).  :)

NEXT...these are ETCHED KITS, which, by their very nature, are going to be much more difficult to build than injection molded, resin-cast kits...and once again...not appropriate for "average" model railroaders.

I think we can just chit-can the idea that for these etched kits to be "viable" they have to appeal to the "average" N-scale model railroader.

Conversely, there is no reason that "advanced" model railroaders wouldn't be more attracted to an etched kit that is well designed, goes together in a well thought-out assembly sequence, relatively quickly too, and has registration protocols built-in as assembly aids, which do not adversely affect the scale appearance of the models.  "Advanced" N-scale model railroaders are going to be the target market because we are the ones who will be willing to shell out the big bucks for dozens of these frets to make our "advanced" signaled, more-prototype layouts meet our expectations.  We haven't bought anything that is presently out there because those products aren't up to snuff for us.

I find it highly encouraging that both @dcutting and @Wutter are displaying their not fully developed products here at TRW, which means they're willing to take both negative and positive feedback, to hopefully, encourage them to develop the final version of their signals to be prototypical, finely detailed and relatively easy to assemble.

Just sayin'...

Cheerio!
Bob Gilmore




Wutter

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Re: CPL Signal Project
« Reply #14 on: August 20, 2016, 10:21:34 AM »
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Not to stray too far off topic....the hoods that I had designed for my Type G and Searchlight signals had used a single point of registration to center the hoods on the target face. Everything worked pretty well except that it was hard to get the edges of the hood aligned perfectly.

Quick picture of first generation signals that I made:



As they stand currently the hoods are meant to fit into arch shaped registration holes on the target faces. I'm thinking about trying 3 point registration with the hoods for better alignment, but the only thing that worries me is that it might over-constrain the assembly if the hoods aren't bent exactly to the radius they are designed for.

I guess in the worst case scenario, the outer registration pins can still be easily trimmed off and the center pin be used for centering.
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