Locomotives with Molded-In Details or Pre-Drilled to Add Details?

[mu26aeh]

Now I'm guessing this engine will be an SD40-2. If it is, you have competition from IM and Kato.

He has said it is NOT an SD40-2.

[EspeeGoldenState]

Predrilled, thank you very much - or as FVM has done, dimples and you drill your own.  And you probably oughta throw in those details (again, as FVM does).

I honestly suspect most will never add the details, but I have around fifty FVMs and they are all tricked out.  Because why not.

This for me as well. Predrilled and baggy with the extra details.

Chris

[Glenn Poole]

[EspeeGoldenState]

Well said---I'm concerned that those posting here wanting dimples or pre-drilled holes are also the ones that would buy the rivet counter model anyway.  The only ones who respond here should be the ones who would by the economy model.  I am one of those and want the molded on details.  As I stated earlier, I am a great Kato fan.

It depends on what the price point between the two is really, or if its a DCC only/DCC-Sound type of an issue. Personally I don't need all the bells and whistles (pun intended) but want the details on the outside.

I try to make the scenery and rolling stock as correct as possible, but missing grab irons and such can make a picture look just like a toy. You can't transform sound into a picture.

Chris

[chessie system fan]

Daniel does bring up a good point.  Almost every diesel has been made in N already by a high quality manufacturer (most by Atlas and Kato).  The only ones left are the more esoteric ones.  That means any new model will compete with what's already available, and to be competitive that model would need to be better in some way (say price, or releasing the model more than every ten years and in more schemes than UP, ATSF, BN, BNSF).  Some models available now are difficult to improve upon, unless it's with details.  Other older models with wide hoods like the SD40, SD45, GP30 and GP35 could use an update, even if it's only without the "bells and whistles." 

[cjm413]

The only ones who respond here should be the ones who would by the economy model.

The only ones who should say who responds and who doesn't should be the manufacturer that asked the question...

[scaletrains]

We truly appreciate everyone's input.  Interestingly, pre-drilled and molded details are neck-and-neck with dimples a distant third.

Here's some additional info about our first diesel locomotive:

Operator
1. The selling price will likely be under $100 for DCC-ready and under $150 for DCC & sound preinstalled.
2. If we offered a pre-drilled or dimple version, the detail kit would be available separately to help keep the cost down.
3. Pre-drilled holes will need to be "opened-up" due to painting.

Rivet Counter
1. The selling price will likely be under $150 for DCC-ready and under $220 for DCC & sound preinstalled.
2. The Rivet Counter model will be railroad specific with different versions and all separately applied parts pre-installed at the factory including wire grab irons.

Since the Rivet Counter model will have all of the details factory applied, we're going to quote both the pre-drilled and molded-on Operator versions to determine which is least expensive to help keep the selling cost low.

Please continue to share your thoughts.

Thanks for your help!

Shane


Shane Wilson
President
ScaleTrains.com, Inc.

[scaletrains]

One thing further, if you are planning to offer wire parts then please consider making them the correct scale size (e.g., 0.005" diameter wire for grabirons and cut levers).   I have seen pre-made parts that use oversize wire, and I never really saw the benefit -- there is little difference in either handling or durability.

Ed: unfortunately there are limitations to mass-production.  The bare wire we're using is .007" (same size as BLMA N scale grab irons).  If you look at the "Big Blow" Turbine photo on the back of our catalog, the grabs do appear a little large.  Keep in mind, the image is at least 6 times the actual model size.
https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0642/8107/files/SXT80255-ST-Catalog-Vol-2.pdf?4018214538859890499

I visited with Bruce Stikkers (active Railwire member) at the National Train Show in Indy.  He expressed concerned about the size of the grab irons from the photos.  After closely examining the model, he was very pleased with the results and placed a preorder.

Shane


Shane Wilson
President
ScaleTrains.com, Inc.

[Catt]

I would settle for the molded on detail (if you get close enough to my toys to tell if the details are freestanding your gonna get smacked  )

[peteski]

I visited with Bruce Stikkers (active Railwire member) at the National Train Show in Indy.  He expressed concerned about the size of the grab irons from the photos.  After closely examining the model, he was very pleased with the results and placed a preorder.

Shane

ScaleTrains.com, Inc.

That might be so, but some modelers (like Ed Nadolski for example) like to take extreme close-up photos of their super-detailed N scale models and have them look like larger scale models or even real locomotives.  That is why what even looks good when viewed in-person won't quite do when photographed. But I also realize that there are limitations on what can realistically be used on mass-produced models and that painted 0.007" wire is the best you can do.

It is too bad that this thread didn't have a poll in it to be able to easily count the votes.

[mu26aeh]

It is too bad that this thread didn't have a poll in it to be able to easily count the votes.

Can new members do polls ?  Maybe that's why there isn't one originally .  Can an admin add a pole ?  Three options 1) Pre-drilled, 2) Dimples 3) Molded

[CBQ Fan]

We truly appreciate everyone's input.  Interestingly, pre-drilled and molded details are neck-and-neck with dimples a distant third.

Here's some additional info about our first diesel locomotive:

Operator
1. The selling price will likely be under $100 for DCC-ready and under $150 for DCC & sound preinstalled.
2. If we offered a pre-drilled or dimple version, the detail kit would be available separately to help keep the cost down.
3. Pre-drilled holes will need to be "opened-up" due to painting.

Rivet Counter
1. The selling price will likely be under $150 for DCC-ready and under $220 for DCC & sound preinstalled.
2. The Rivet Counter model will be railroad specific with different versions and all separately applied parts pre-installed at the factory including wire grab irons.

Since the Rivet Counter model will have all of the details factory applied, we're going to quote both the pre-drilled and molded-on Operator versions to determine which is least expensive to help keep the selling cost low.

Please continue to share your thoughts.

Thanks for your help!

Shane


Shane Wilson
President
ScaleTrains.com, Inc.

This all just sounds awesome!! In like both versions and the price spread!

[ednadolski]

Ed: unfortunately there are limitations to mass-production.  The bare wire we're using is .007" (same size as BLMA N scale grab irons).  If you look at the "Big Blow" Turbine photo on the back of our catalog, the grabs do appear a little large.  Keep in mind, the image is at least 6 times the actual model size.

Thanks Shane, and I definitely have a strong appreciation for pragmatic limitations.  As an 'extreme' sort of detailer, on a topic like this I am very much a minority voice for sure.   

That actually is a reason why I also do have interest in buying the Operator-level version.  A fully detailed version is frankly less interesting if I have to replace the detail parts anyways. However if the model has molded-on parts, then there is not much to distinguish it from existing offerings on the market today (full-circle back to competing on price/availability/quality -- areas of diminishing margin).

I am always amazed at how good the human eye is at picking up on what at first sounds like inconsequential differences.  For example, in the following pic the grabirons and cut levers are 0.005" stainless steel wire and the handrails are 0.008" phosphor bronze wire:



The difference between the grabs and handrails is only 0.003" -- about 1/2 a scale inch.  Even so it is still a 37% differential which does become apparent when the two sizes are in close proximity.   The eye picks up on subtle clues like that and that is a factor in helping to create a sense of mass and scale. I think that would be lacking if I used the same size wire for both the handrails and grabirons on this model.   

Cheers,
Ed

[ednadolski]

3. Pre-drilled holes will need to be "opened-up" due to painting.

Then if the consumer has to drill anyway, is there really any benefit to holes over dimples?   Seems that holes would just add a step to the manufacturing process (and thus add to the final cost).

Ed

(Edit: Please don't take that as a suggestion to make over-sized holes to compensate for the paint!   )

[Missaberoad]

In fact the holes filled with paint might make it easer to use smaller diameter grab irons.