Locomotives with Molded-In Details or Pre-Drilled to Add Details?

[Frisco Larry]

I would go with molded on or factory installed.  I would guess that KATO's practice is telling, their passenger car sets used to come with add-on parts, now they are factory installed.  I would recommend that if there are add-on parts, be sure the completed model will still fit in the box.  I bought a pair of Atlas GE Dash 8-32BWH B-B in 2002, which came with a pair of cab sunshades to be added by buyer.  After adding them, I put the locos in their box and immediately smashed the shades.  (The response from Atlas was basically "tough toenails" and "we might change the box design on future runs".  They didn't even offer to replace the broken shades.

[davefoxx]

Rivet counter: Freestanding factory-installed details.

Operator series: Molded-on detail.

The theory being that if a modeler wants freestanding detail, upgrade to the Rivet Counter model.  Will it really save that much to have the modeler install the details? I know that if I want a superdetailed model, I would gladly pay $10.00 to $20.00 more, because the factory will do a better job, and I have better things on which to spend my hobby time.  Where the modeler is not as concerned about detail, having molded-on detail installed means that those who are not inclined or don't have the skills to install details won't be left with a naked "dimpled" locomotive.

DFF

[chessie system fan]

For free standing details, take a look at what Trainworx is doing.  I've never seen finer designed ladders and grabs on RTR equipment.  Their details are etched.

 FWIW, to me separate details like grabs are pretty useless if they are overscale by very much.  It just becomes another thing for me to remove and upgrade.  Fine scale details are best, followed by finely molded on details, with separate overscale details coming distant third place.  Their only redeeming feature is they are much easier to remove than molded on details.  Of course, at the same time the fine details should not be too fragile.   It is admittedly a fine line to balance on between scale size and robustness, but plenty of manufacturers have done it well.

Whatever you do, please, please don't do a detailed undec model with all the details glued in place.  Or glue at all for that matter.  The model has to be disassembled to be painted, after all.  Why some manufacturers still do this sometimes is a mystery (or more likely an issue with the factory in China).

On the subject of glue, models should be designed to use as little of it as possible.  All the best designed locomotives in N scale are snap fit.  There is no excuse at all for walkways, cabs, hoods, dynamic brakes, windows or handrails to be glued.  Anything that is is just poorly designed. 

Glued details are understandable (though press fit is easily doable and much better, IMO, in some instances).  But if there are glue blobs or shiny gloss glue leaking through a seam on a flat finish model... I'll take the lesser detailed option with molded on grabs and ladders any day.   The same goes for glued details that are glued on crooked. 

For value priced models,  molded on details should not be overscale, as much as engineering will allow.  I like that you're calling the upper tier line a Rivet Counter Line.  Seriously, look at a Micro Trains heavyweight passenger car and its rivets and a Roundhouse/Athearn PS1 boxcar at its weld seams.  To me, that is the gold standard.  When I see things molded fatter than those examples I sigh, because I know what is possible in our scale.

Finally, details are nice, but if the model doesn't run well ... it's been nice knowing you.  Goodbye haha.  For reasons probably physics related N scale locomotives designed like HO locomotives don't necessarily work well.  This is most pronounced in locomotive trucks.  Most manufacturers in N scale use end axle pickups for a very good reason.  Those that do not do so at their peril (OK maybe slight hyperbole).  The mark of how well a locomotive runs and is designed is not factory fresh out of the box but how well it runs fifteen years from now used on ebay.   

I've dealt with many locomotives over the years, and in thirty years worth of end axle truck pickups I've only come across one pair that needed replacement.  For back of the wheel wipers, probably most needed adjustment of some sort.  The problem is that back of the wheel wipers get bent out of shape over time, and solder joints on flexible things like trucks tend to break.  There another big reason end axle wipers are best, and that is friction.  Put a truck on the track.  You should easily be able to blow it down the track a foot or two or more with one breath.  Or put the wheels on your finger.  The wheels should spin for quite a while.  The other style can barely do either. 


*Steps off of soap box*

[Glenn Poole]

I wouldn't buy one. I want molded-in details that won't break off, as I said earlier.

I agree. That's why I like Kato.
Hmm... I think dimples
are cute on a baby
orangutan...

[peteski]

Rivet counter: Freestanding factory-installed details.

Operator series: Molded-on detail.

The theory being that if a modeler wants freestanding detail, upgrade to the Rivet Counter model.  Will it really save that much to have the modeler install the details? I know that if I want a superdetailed model, I would gladly pay $10.00 to $20.00 more, because the factory will do a better job, and I have better things on which to spend my hobby time.  Where the modeler is not as concerned about detail, having molded-on detail installed means that those who are not inclined or don't have the skills to install details won't be left with a naked "dimpled" locomotive.

DFF

That is exactly my thought!    Both models should be ready-to-run (or ready to be displayed in a display case  ) out-of-the-box.  No extra work by the modeler should be needed for either.    I have not bought some of the recent Bachmann diesels and one of the reasons was that the grabs were not molded on them.  Byt Dave has eloquently explained the logic of the opinion he and I share.

If someone doesn't like the fidelity if the rivet-counter model and wants to roll-their-own from the operator model, then can shave off the molded-in details (and that will give them location of the holes to drill). Plus, they can use TruColor paint for perfect touchups. 

[coosvalley]

I guess my problem with molded on grabs, is that they are a representation of what they are supposed to be, therefore, to me, unrealistic. This is why I'd prefer they be left off. They don't "convince" me that they are what they are supposed to be.I just see blobs of plastic. I suppose if you could touch up the paint easily, with exact colors, that would be a huge help. Not every color in the Tru color line is correct, though, specifically MEC yellow, which was more orange than a Bachmann MEC caboose .Accupaint had it right...

I understand not wanting to Have to do anything, that would be most modelers preference I'll concede.

What I don't understand is why some guys are breaking small details off to the point of not wanting them. How rough are you treating these things?. They are expensive little machines so I treat them as such. If you can't handle them or see the tiny details, I'm surprised you would pick N-scale at all, not that anyone isn't welcome in this scale or anything like that.

This thread should definitely confuse the folks at Scaletrains! I cannot see a clear winner, and we took it upon ourselves to add the dimple option!  :ashat:s Forever!

[peteski]

I understand not wanting to Have to do anything, that would be most modelers preference I'll concede.

What I don't understand is why some guys are breaking small details off to the point of not wanting them. How rough are you treating these things?. They are expensive little machines so I treat them as such. If you can't handle them or see the tiny details, I'm surprised you would pick N-scale at all, not that anyone isn't welcome in this scale or anything like that.

When you have a layout where you actually run full operations (schedules, switching and bunch of guys doing this every week) models will from time to time be  handled roughly (usually by accident).  You don't want you $300 museum-quality model on that layout.  I'm speaking from experience here.  Same goes for what I run on NTRAK layouts at train shows.  I like N scale, that is why I model with it, and the rough handling is just expected to happen in those situations.  If you have a roundy-round layout where you carefully put your train on track then just watch it run in circles (with nobody grabbing for it), then that super-detailed $300 model is safe.

If you look at the currently produced models, probably 95% have molded-on details which in some cases IMO look even better than oversize add-on details. But that is neither here or there.  Majority of N scale consumers are quite happy with molded-on grabs and ladders.

This thread should definitely confuse the folks at Scaletrains! I cannot see a clear winner, and we took it upon ourselves to add the dimple option!  :ashat:s Forever!

I don't see anything confusing. They already decided that they'll produce 2 versions of their models: one "rivet-counter" version with museum-quality delicate details and then the other - a simpler model for the general unwashed N scale masses.  The question seems to be what to model on the simpler model.  Grabs or no grabs (with either holes or dimples).  My opinion is to have molded-on grabs on the simpler model, so people who choose to buy it can just use it straight out of the box.

[ednadolski]

My opinion is to have molded-on grabs on the simpler model, so people who choose to buy it can just use it straight out of the box.

Seems to me this is perpetuating a misconception.  I honestly do not see how a model without molded-on grabirons is any less usable OOTB than one with molded parts.

AFAICT the FVM business model has not suffered from going with dimples.  Customers have many higher priorities, such as paint scheme, performance, quality, availability, and of course cost.

While manufacturers like to make claims about detailing, let's not forget that on many N-scale diesels the majority of molded-on parts are on the hood ends and pilots and thus are not all that easy to see under average operating conditions, e.g. the three-foot rule.  (Scale handrails OTOH are a different story, but that's a separate discussion).

As previously mentioned, separate tooling for molded and non-molded shells would increase the base cost for both kinds of models.  Perhaps the question can and should be re-stated: are folks willing to pay more for the same base model in order to have unprototypical 'details', or would they prefer a lower-cost model that looks essentially the same under normal viewing conditions?


Ed

[coosvalley]

Well if they plan on offering a version without all the details, then those of you who want molded on details would probably want that, so you don't need to worry! The question asked was whether or not the "Rivet Counter" version should have the details added at the factory or by the user, which, I wouldn't mind the factory doing it. But, at the end of the OP's post, he mentions having them molded on or separate. So I guess my question is what would be the difference from the "bare bones" version if the "rivet counter"version had them molded on??...His questions were clear, but that added part at the end does not help me understand exactly what he want to know....
But, you guys can breathe easy, it seems clear you will get the "molded on" details version of whatever loco we're discussing, the "Rivet Counter" version seems to be the version he wants us to discuss..

I honestly do not see how a model without molded-on grabirons is any less usable OOTB than one with molded parts.

This..

[Missaberoad]

@coosvalley the question is about the lower end "operator" version. The rivet counter version will come with details installed.

[coosvalley]

@coosvalley the question is about the lower end "operator" version. The rivit counter version will come with details installed.

You're right! ..So, I guess my answer is the same, Dimples, but I wouldn't care because if there was a better version, I would get that, if it is a loco I want or need ...
_{the following is a subliminal message:Cf-7 C-7 Cf-7 Cf-7}

[daniel_leavitt2000]

Shane, its good to see you on the forum. I think we have chatted on and off for close to 10 years, and I trust your judgment.

I have given this a bit of thought and I would like to ask you one question: Do you think there is any money in the low end? The reason I ask, is that the only "budget" engines I can think of: Atlas's GP15 and Bachmann's standard line, have not really set the world on fire. In fact, the prices have been creeping up drastically. The latest run of GP15's is $110 where their standard line is $140 or so. That GP15 can't be making much of a profit as there are only a few parts and assembly reductions over the Master line.

MP attempted (badly) to tool a train set and modeler versions of the FP7. The end result was bemusement, annoyance and confusion over who got what and for how much. In N scale, ANY version of the same engine will eat sales (See IM vs MTL FTs).

I would say target a rivet counter DC engine at an MSRP of $150-160 and a DCC/Sound unit at $220 and work your way back. Start with phases, then road specific details and then grabs/lift rings. I know the SP guys would much rather have a proper light package than etched lift rings. I can live with molded on grabs if I get Flexcoil trucks and a cab signal box on my SD40-2.

If you need to tool a standard line shell separately from the rivet counter line, by all means use the resources for more phases and road details on the high end. It just doesn't make sense in such a small market to repeat items.

Now I'm guessing this engine will be an SD40-2. If it is, you have competition from IM and Kato.

Announce these before IM comes to market. I will cancel my order for IM's CR units because I know they won't be right.

Focus on good looking trucks and frame detail. This is an area that IM (by way of Atlas parts) will miss by a mile.

Etched roof fans, but not screens. Etched roof fans look great in N. But corrugations and chicken wire look better molded in.

Make a killer mechanism. You are battling Kato here. Needlepoint axles. 5 pole skew wound motor (or better yet coreless). This is absolutely a requirement. Again, you can fly right by IM - the Atlas HTC mechanism is not great.

Try something really groundbreaking. Something like surface mount LEDs on ribbon cable that they use in cell phones. This would be perfect for ditch lights. No need for a light tube. Each light operated individually. Easy to unclip from the DC board and toss in a DCC board. Nominal cost over conventionally wired LEDs

[Ed Kapuscinski]

If the Kato Mike is any kind of guide, add on details will be added by only a few.
You will get far fewer complaints if the parts are molded in.

I hate to say it, but this is true.

[Seligman Sub]

My vote is for dimples or nothing.  Not a fan of molded on grabs. Love FVM's approach

[ednadolski]

Majority of N scale consumers are quite happy with molded-on grabs and ladders.

I don't think I would agree with this as a blanket statement either.

It's probably more accurate to say that N-scalers are generally accustomed to having molded-on parts because that is what the state-of-the-art has offered for such a long time.  HO scale was the same way, but now has reached the point where it is hard to find an HO diesel that does not have wire parts installed (notwithstanding the cheap train-set components, which presumably are not of interest here).   If the manufacturing capability for better detailing exists, then it would be a shame if N-scalers do not benefit from it like the HO folks, esp. if it is only a matter of status quo perceptions.

On durability, I can attest that the scale grabirons that I make from 0.005" stainless steel wire are quite durable (as opposed to say brass wire).  You would have to give the model a pretty good bump in just the right place to knock one off or out of shape, but that would take an almost deliberate level of rough/careless handling.  (Even if it fell to the floor, it's way more likely that a corner or coupler would take damage before one of the wire parts came off --- hopefully none of us are subjecting our models to that level of abuse!  )  The point here is, the 'durability' claims of molded-on parts are another case where we should ask, "is this something that we genuinely need?"

Ed