Help with CP Horse car

[JoeD]

Howdy all.  We are looking for info to produce our Horse Car in CP markings.  Puddington was working with me on this and had sent along drawings but events precluded sending the photo's he noted he had.  So, I was hoping someone out there has a photo of a Heavyweight we can use.  The drawings I have are for cars marked with Dominion Express Car on the side, which places it pretty early in the 20th Century.  I can find lots of longer, what looks like light weight versions, but nothing that has the look ours has.  Any help would be greatly appreciated.   Remember folks...focus  LOL

Joe
MTL

[Missaberoad]

I assume you have the Folio drawing for CP 4510-4515?

I'll dig through my books and see If I have a picture of them. It is a rare class on CP's roster, most horse cars were either the 8 door trussrod "palace" cars or the later lightweight cars.

[JoeD]

I assume you have the Folio drawing for CP 4510-4515?

I'll dig through my books and see If I have a picture of them. It is a rare class on CP's roster, most horse cars were either the 8 door trussrod "palace" cars or the later lightweight cars.

Hi Ryan,

Yes, those were the ones he forwarded.  The main thing is getting the markings correct and in the right place.  I doubt they had one like ours, but we want to be able to provide this car for CP guys who want full trains.

Thanks a ton

Joe

[eja]

Just make it ...  you can be sure lots of rivet counters will come up with very detailed picture AFTER you have done so.

[Missaberoad]

Not much luck...  I can't find a single photo in any of my books (not even a lousy picture)... I still have to check Fred Headon's books and the Stock car pictorial but both of those are long shots.

I posed the question to the CPsig group, hopefully it bears some fruit...

[Angus Shops]

"Canadian Pacific in the Rockies volume five" (D. M. Bain, Calgary Group of the British Railway Modellers of North America) has a photo on page 12 of a train arriving in Calgary with horse express car behind the locomotive. It's not a heavyweight car; it's a 1949 built 'round side' car in the 4560-4565 series. It has 3 sets of doors down the side with small windows between.

I also checked the Canadian Pacific Historical Association documents library 'passenger folio'. It lists the 4510-4515 series (appears to be a wood car with clerestory roof, with notes that the cars are restricted to CPR use only due to wood under frames and composite trucks), and the  4545-4550 and 4554-4559 series, which are steel heavyweight cars with arched (turtle back) roofs very similar to typical CPR heavyweight baggage/express cars, including the fact they only have two sets of doors on each side. I'm guessing these would be closest to the Microtrains product (you'd have a real winner if you could come up with an arch roof...)

Geoff

[Missaberoad]

Checking the 1957 ORER listings 4510-4515 Geoff is correct they were of wood construction, They are also off the roster by the 1960 ORER...

I noticed that picture of the Stampeder's Train in Calgary but 4560-4565 were the lightweight cars Joe had mentioned in his original post.

As for 4545-4550 and 4554-4559 Here's a picture of 4547, not at all like the SP Horse car Micro-trains has...
http://images.techno-science.ca/images_site/RailCollection/Originals/MAT000277.jpg

[Angus Shops]

Hmmmm, that's a mystery. I can't figure where that photo of 4547 fits in.

I checked the ORER rosters. It seems that CP reserved the 4500 series for horse express cars. In '43 they listed wood series 4500-4515 and 4551-4556, and no steel cars. In 1949 steel cars 4560-4565 appeared; these were the new lightweight curved side cars, while wood cars were down to 4502-4515 and 4551-4553. The wood cars dwindled and were gone by 1960, replaced by steel cars 4545-4550 and 4554-4559, with the lightweight cars. By 1964 they were down to (heavyweight) 4554-4559 and (lightweight) 4560-4565, and by '65 only 4555 and 4561-4564 were left.

Judging from the the folio drawings, the 4545-4559 and 4554-4559 steel cars were converted from the CP's sizeable fleet of very similar heavyweight full length arch roof Baggage/express cars sometime between '57 and '60. The photo of 4547 appears to be a steel sheathed wood car with truss rods. My guess it's a pre 1943 car and was off the roster by the 1943 ORER. It's clearly converted from some sort of heavily windowed baggage/express/RPO type that I'm not familiar with. And it's still labeled "express".

Geoff

[Angus Shops]

None of which helps Joe with his question.

I say decorate it following the pattern that CP used for one of its three door horse cars such as the lightweight 4560-4565 cars, but number it in the heavyweight (2 door) 4545-4550 and 4554-4559 series.

Geoff

[Missaberoad]

None of which helps Joe with his question.

I say decorate it following the pattern that CP used for one of its three door horse cars such as the lightweight 4560-4565 cars, but number it in the heavyweight (2 door) 4545-4550 and 4554-4559 series.

Geoff

I agree completely, Post early 1950s CP had pretty much standardized it's lettering for heavyweights. It wouldn't be an accurate car but no more of a stretch then some others (not complaining just stating a fact).

I did look at the 1929 ORER and it lists Two classes 4500-4547 "Horse express 70' and under" for 17 cars, and 4550-4599 "Horse express 70' and over" for 8 cars. That would explain the picture of the converted wooden car I found.

[thomasjmdavis]

Quick internet search turned up CP HS "Tracks" magazine, Vol 10 No 2, which had an article on the "Palace" horse cars

http://www.cptracks.ca/cpsig/backissues.html

I understand these are not the cars you are looking for, but wondering if the article might contain either a photo or a lettering guide for various periods.

A couple questions-
What was the build date for 4510-15?
Were the cars used to move horses to the USA for races or horse shows?  I note the CP, in the modern day, has taken on sponsorship of a major horse show in Kentucky, and wondering if there is a history there,

Tom D

[thomasjmdavis]

Nothing on this webpage, but I wonder what might be in there archives:
http://canadianhorseracinghalloffame.com/

[thomasjmdavis]

Here is something with the right number of doors, but darned if I can spot a car number...

[Missaberoad]

Beautiful! That would be the car. either in the 4502-4515 class (63' OB) or the 4551-4553 class (75' OB) in 1951, both classes being wood construction.

[Angus Shops]

I have that issue of "Tracks"; I'll dig it out after work and see what it has to say.

And that a great photo on a number of levels. If I understand the rules on wood and steel cars in the same train, the horse car must have been 'steel reinforced...

Geoff