What track voltage do Z and Nn3 modelers use?

[narrowminded]

I know that 9 volts is the "standard" but was wondering what you guys are actually using. I ask because I see more running DCC now and that's higher unless you are using a voltage dropper such as the Digitrax UP6Z . I also hear discussions around various DC controllers that may or may not be modified for 9 volts.
I have to pick a standard for a power chassis I am developing and want it to be the preferred or the most common in use.

I also would like to hear from the folks who are building Nn3 set-ups, same question. Are you doing any different than the 9 volt standard?

What I have done during testing is used the UP6Z dropper with DCC and have used a regulated supply with a Medved PWM controller on DC.

Thanks.

[nscaler711]

It really depends on the locomotive/ manufacturer I have a couple AZL locomotives and they are rated for 12 volts.
But realistically you wouldn't want to run any locos at full speed anyway, so if anything use 12v but limit to 9-10v.
As for DCC that also depends on the decoders, I've seen Z decoders rated for 16v, and 12v. So for DCC I'd limit to 12v.

My Rokuhan DC controller takes a 12v input, whether it be 8 AAA Batteries or a 12v supply so... There's that...

[narrowminded]

Thanks.  That's exactly the kind of thing I'm looking for.

[wcfn100]

It was easy 25 years ago.  All my dad's conversions used Marklin mechanisms so he just used a Marklin power pack.


Jason

[peteski]

I didn't vote since I don't run Z scale on regular basis (I do own few locos).

The N-Scale Magazine features an excellent Nn3 column.  There was a discussion about throttles and voltages (in DC and DCC).

As you know, the Z scale "standard" from Marklin is 9V max. This seems to have been adopted by other Z scale manufacturers.

But as far as Nn3 goes (with all the cottage industry manufacturers) and with the proliferation of tiny inexpensive motors (many from cell phone vibrators), there doesn't seem to be any standard.  You can find 9, 6, 3, and even 1.5V models.  There are various methods of reducing the voltage going to the motors.  Resistors, diodes, Zener diodes are some of the way of accomplishing this task.

The article I read said that using lower voltage motors with standard DCC decoder is harmless as long as the CV5 (Vmax) is adjusted down.  However I don't really feel comfortable with that recommendation,. Even with Vmax limited, the decoder's PWM (Pulse Width Modulated) motor output still sends full voltage pulses to the motor.  Even if the windings were unaffected by the overvoltage, I thing that the delicate commutators of the small motors might be exposed to excessive arcing.  Also, if the decoder ever "blows its brain" (which does happen)  there is a good chance that CV5 will get reset and that undoes the voltage limit.

There is no such thing as a Z scale DCC decoder. At least I never seen such animal.  Manufacturer's model names (such as Z2 or DZ126T) are strictly based on the decoders size, not electrical properties.  Those decoders are small enough for Z scale models (but are also usable in N, or H0 scale models as long as the maximum current ratings are not exceeded).

[narrowminded]

While the motor voltage is an issue (this is 6 volt without resistors) one of the other big concerns is the lighting which must be able to take the peak voltage regardless of PWM settings.  And as small as this piece is space is at an absurd premium anyway but is further aggravated by things that consume space but aren't heavy. So an obvious answer in larger units would be adding an led driver that will handle varied voltages but in this one it may not be a good option even if it could be made to fit. Not when the weight is taken into consideration.  I'll try but...  So what I'm trying to do is find out if many are running the higher voltage and then just strive to make the thing run at that.  I know that some are running some odd voltages but I'm trying to make that unnecessary. 

My own inclination has been to make it to handle twelve volts and run well on nine as well as having lights functioning decently.  Any other voltages could be done as an option.  But before to put too much energy in any one direction it occurred to me to ask what folks are actually doing already, hence this poll.  I'm at that point in final chassis design details that it's time to get specific. And I really hate it when I burn a lot of energy coming up with solutions to problems that prove not to exist.     This thing has already tested my sanity.

[nscaler711]

There is no such thing as a Z scale DCC decoder. At least I never seen such animal.  Manufacturer's model names (such as Z2 or DZ126T) are strictly based on the decoders size, not electrical properties.  Those decoders are small enough for Z scale models (but are also usable in N, or H0 scale models as long as the maximum current ratings are not exceeded).

@peteski yes there are Z scale decoders...
http://www.zscalemonster.com/tcs/
http://www.zscalemonster.com/digitrax/
 

[Nick Lorusso]

The Z-scalers I know use 9 volts. MTL locos are rated at 9volts

[peteski]

@peteski yes there are Z scale decoders...
http://www.zscalemonster.com/tcs/
http://www.zscalemonster.com/digitrax/
 

Not electrically.  Physical size and shape - yes.

Notice that I already mentioned that TCS Z2 is considered Z because of its small physical size. The other ones are plug-and-play replacement boards for Z scale locomotive. But the electronics used in them are no different than electronics in N scale decoders. There is nothing preventing me from taking one of the plug-and-play decoders for the Z scale loco and using it in an N scale model (with 12V DCC system).

Narrowminded:  Lighting should be the least of your concerns.  With modern White LEDs being very efficient, you can design the circuit to be safe at 12V (or whatever voltage you use) and they will still be bright at much lower voltages.   Lets say the LED maximum current is 10mA. If you calculate a current limiting resistor value to supply 10mA @ 12V and then run that circuit off 6V the current might be around 5mA. The  brightness of the LED @ 5mA will probably exactly rright for realism (10mA woudl most likely be way too bright).  Most white LED headlights un ad a fraction of the maximum LED current, so they have large safety of overvoltage margin already there.

If you want true-constant lighting at wide range of voltages then you can use constant current diode in the LED circuit. Since it is the current that determines the LED brightness, this circuit will have constant brightness in a wide range of voltages.

[narrowminded]

I did DCC testing on this chassis with a CT DCX76z which measures 0.27" x 0.24" x 0.07".  It ran sweet!  To my knowledge that's still the smallest decoder made, measurably so.  With the new gears I'm making I may be able to change that model but still need the thinness, the thinner the better.  On that one it's .07"  and there's another that is even thinner yet at .052" while a little bigger in the other planes.  That will be in consideration for a DCC option as well as that above. 

[narrowminded]

Thanks Pete.  I haven't fooled around with the LEDs on regular DC, just DCC.  There I had the constant current so the brightness level was easy.  I didn't fool with it much even then, just checking basic functions, but am going to be doing just that very soon as part of this next phase.  That's why I'm trying to get the variables lined up so I can hopefully have them covered or at least viable options available for the weird ones.  I was leaning to the constant current driver for its foolproof functionality but in some earlier research I remember them being a bit bulkier than the surface mount resistors.  But I haven't really pondered it in depth.  That's the next venture. I have a good assortment of components to test with and will be doing a lot of that.  By the time I'm done I'll have a pretty good idea of what I'm doing.  Let there be light!

It may seem like I'm nuts saying some of those components are "big" but it's all relative and this thing I'm making is small.  And when I say small, I mean really small. For Nn3, able to be under 5 scale feet high on straight DC and up to maybe 5.5' with DCC is what it's looking like.  And super smooth performance, crawling to whatever top speed the gearing chosen provides, between about 25 to 65 N Scale MPH.  To my awares it will be the smallest in the world and by a decent amount.  And my biggest problem as well as a large part of the effort this far is getting and keeping sufficient weight for decent performance.  After getting the performance resolved including low scale speed gearing and axle compensation for pickup, weight has been the next most difficult task and a huge part of the ongoing effort is keeping the weight sufficient for decent running.  That's not a small part of what the final testing will be determining for the final product.  Then, when it comes to powering more conventional critters it will become like a walk in the park... sorta.   It's been very challenging and at least a little bit of fun.

[Chris333]

1.5 volts 

[narrowminded]

1.5 volts 

.... aaand, loving it!   And they're canned volts, right?

[Chris333]

.... aaand, loving it!   And they're canned volts, right?

Yep.

Also have the Rokuhan controller, but found that the speed I run at is also 1.5 volts.

[Catt]

I usually run mine at 10 to 12 volts and have no problems.Even my MTL locos run just fine on 12 volts,there is no excessive heat build up.I don't have any Marklin and do not intend to ever have any.