Another Bachmann K4 bites the dust

[wcfn100]

It's a non-Spectrum steamer from Bachmann.  People were distracted by the fact that it happened to be a K4.

Hey, maybe they'll be so bad that someone else will still make them.   

*****, did I just actually say that?   

Jason

[randgust]

Every once in a while I'm tempted to dive into DCC and sound.  Even after frying multiple TCS decoders for no apparent reason.

Thank you for reminding me why I can still live without it.   Even on the units with the 'dual mode' decoders, I've removed them and rewired them simple.  Things still go wrong, but by comparison, diagnosis is easy and potential damage is far, far less.

It rather reminds me of compounding in the steam era.    Unless you've seen a diagram of a balanced compound on what looks like an otherwise normal steam locomotive, you can't understand the analogy.

But parts is parts, and if you're depending on a certain unit to be the 'go to guys' you really do have to stockpile a spare.   My 'go to' power remains Kato SD45's, and I've got nine of them and four C30's.   One goes down and I've got another close behind it.   I buy used ones to guarantee a parts supply just in case.   

[reinhardtjh]

The warranty thing is weird, but I think if you read the fine print they say that they can substitute models if the original is unrepairable or replacement is unavailable.

If this is true (I haven't read the K-4 warranty), then consider getting a Berkshire, sell it, and recoup some of your losses.

It is.  I quote from the warranty info in the K4s package:

NOTE: In the event that a specific product cannot be repaired for any reason, and at the option of Bachmann, a product may be replaced with a reconditioned model of equivalent quality.  In the event that you have any other questions concerning the use and/or care of this product, please contact the service department

So, by their terms they have honored the warranty.  You can fault them for not keeping enough spare parts (I don't know what's missing - their parts page still shows tender parts available - both shells and chassis), but not for not keeping to their warranty.

I'm out of the loco review business I think.  Even though my K4s are still running perfectly, I feel a profound sense of defeat.  Defeat for what I wrote not knowing these things were time bombs (which Victor in his not-so-diplomatic way was saying) and defeat for thinking that a company that has produced junk in the past is not doomed to do so for eternity.

See you guys around...

  @Dave Vollmer,  There is no time bomb yet.  Do a search for people having problems with their K4's on TRW.  You will find three... Rich's, Nato had one throw a rod and someone had one throw a traction tire.  That's it.  How many sold?  I'm sure there are other stories on other forums, but still that's a small handful of probably a thousand or so sold.  Hardly a time bomb.  At least yet.  Down the road after hours of operation?  Who knows. Maybe.  I've got 5. All got a 10hr run in with no problems.  2 have run a little more as I took them to friend's layouts.  I did have one traction tire come off.  I put it back on.  Big whoop.  Don't let the obsessive compulsive complainers get to you. 

[mmagliaro]

I don't recall Victor's dire predictions of K4 failure as having anything to do with a short or melt-down in the tender.
That discussion all focused on the motor, worm bearing, traction tire in the center, and other such engine-side
driveline problems.  (Like that in-line idler gear, which if it wasn't mentioned, should be.)

So Dave, don't beat yourself up.  I don't think this failure represents any more than a sad, unfortunate, isolated instance
at this point.

And Bachmann, well, like somebody else noted, they have complete tender chassis with the sound, and the shells,
for sale on their website right now, so to claim they "don't have parts" is obviously wrong. 
The dark side of me suspects that they have a warehouse
full of Berkshires to unload and they are trying to use them as warranty fodder.

[Rich_S]

And Bachmann, well, like somebody else noted, they have complete tender chassis with the sound, and the shells,
for sale on their website right now, so to claim they "don't have parts" is obviously wrong. 

If you read the web site description, the tenders say "Sound Ready" meaning you're paying $80 for a tender without a DCC sound decoder.

http://estore.bachmanntrains.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=66_70_681&products_id=10058

 I still believe my decoder went up in smoke? The true issue maybe that Bachmann may not have any DCC Sound decoders for the K4? The woman I spoke to did not go into detail on what parts they did not have, only they could not fix or replace my locomotive with another K4. Does the K4 use the same DCC sound decoder as the Berkshire? I do not know? Are the technicians at Bachmann able to place Berkshire DCC sound decoders in renewed K4 tenders? I do not know. All I know is I'm getting my locomotive back, not repaired.  Will I be able to send my locomotive back for repair after the next run of K4's, yes but now there will be a minimum of a $35 service charge, so what I could not get fixed for a shipping cost, will now cost me a minimum of $35 + shipping. As I said earlier, buyer beware. Who knows, maybe I drew the only short straw???       

[mmagliaro]

Rich, you are right.  It just says "sound ready".

And I really am sorry you have been put through this.

[peteski]

I don't think any of us mods are okay with pre-bashing things before they're out, regardless of manufacturer.  The intensely negative environment created in the K4 threads--before anyone ever had one in hand, mind you--elicited a wave of complaints.  You and Victor were caught up in that, and it was less the message and more the delivery.  When many long-standing members talk of leaving because of such strong negativity, we have to take action.  There's making a point and moving on, and then there's being pendantic and not letting go.  If you still feel like the line isn't clear then please feel free to PM me.

For the moment though I see discussion of Bachmann's failure to honor its own warranty as fair game.  It's now a known quantity (versus bashing construction and performance of a loco that no one owns yet...see the difference?).

You are coming in loud an clear.  But I still disagree.  Someone like Victor (and I) who has extensive experience with Bachmann locomotives has enough accumulated knowledge about their design and materials used to be able to predict, with high degree of certainty, what the next model will be like.  Do you really call that bashing?  I don't.  It is a prediction based on bunch of historical data.

Anyway, there is no reason to discuss this any further.  The bottom line is that out of some unknown number of K4s sold, we know of few failures, and one unsatisfactory warranty repair resolution.  The other thousands of K4s out there might live happy and long trouble-free lives.  But (do to my experience with Bachmann) I am always leery of any Bachmann locomotive (even though I'm fully capable of repairing or modifying my models to make them run better).  And unless I see some indication of Bachmann's design and product quality improvement, I will not change my mind about  their products.  By "major" I mean if the next few model locomotives show much better design of the mechanism, and the overall quality of materials and assembly is also much higher than it has been so far.

[Dave V]

You are coming in loud an clear.  But I still disagree.  Someone like Victor (and I) who has extensive experience with Bachmann locomotives has enough accumulated knowledge about their design and materials used to be able to predict, with high degree of certainty, what the next model will be like.  Do you really call that bashing?  I don't.  It is a prediction based on bunch of historical data.

Bashing is also about tone.

FWIW, the motor and gear failures predicted actually don't appear to be the problem.

[peteski]

Bashing is also about tone.

FWIW, the motor and gear failures predicted actually don't appear to be the problem.

EDIT:  For some reason my style of writing (or other members interpretation of my posts) seems to indicate that I am bashing Bachmann.  I don't know - to me this isn't bashing but simply presenting facts from what I experienced myself or heard from reliable sources.  But since this is hard to digest to some of you (judging by the negative votes I'm getting for this thread and PMs), I'm crossing out what some perceive as bashing.   

Victor is more of an authority on the longevity question, but I think your enthusiasm is still a bit premature. Unless you know someone (like Victor) who has been running this loco continuously for several hundred of hours without a failure of the motor or gearing.    I don't rememebr the specific predictions about gearing (in this loco) but in some instances of cracked gears on other locos, those took a long time for the problem to develop.


EDIT: I left this intact as I can't imagine anybody thinking that the following statement is a Bachmann-bash.

And to defend Bachmann, someone said earlier that shells and tenders are still in stock. But does that automatically mean that they also have other parts in stock (like the mechanism or decoders)?  I don't think so. They might have made more shells and tenders than other parts. Or maybe they had  so many locos coming back for repairs of the mechanisms and decoders that they ran out of those already. 

[GaryHinshaw]

Anyway, there is no reason to discuss this any further.

Indeed.  You have made your point, several times.

EDIT: it's not the bashing per se, it's the repetition.

[delamaize]

I feel like some user level diagnosis, investigation, and potentially, repairs could have prevented this entire thread.

I thought we were MODEL railroaders, not "Open the box, slap on rails" railroaders.....

[Kisatchie]

I thought we were MODEL railroaders, not "Open the box, slap on rails" railroaders.....

Some of us aren't mechanically inclined. I'm pretty good at airbrushing, scratchbuilding buildings, and I can assemble Micro-Trains couplers with the best of them, but don't ask me to tinker with an N scale locomotive, especially one with valve gear. That's why manufacturers had better have good warranties.


Hmm... just try to find a
warranty on a banana...

[Dave V]

And I've been taking all of this entirely too seriously.

 

I like trains.

[Scottl]

Some strange editing has gone on to posts here after the fact... 

Sorry to hear about the warranty issues.  Sounds like they got caught without spare parts or extra units.  Still, the number of complaints has been pretty minimal, and we know SPF make a lot of noise  when they want to be heard 

[basementcalling]

Offering to send you a Berk is indicative of the greater Bachmann problem. They aren't hard core enough to play in the deep end. They primary market seems to be the casual model railroader and customer support either doesn't understand this (trains are trains, right?), or didn't have any other options.
They muck up the darndest things. We were all stunned when @eric220 'shopped that blueprint over the model and saw how amazingly well it fit...then they go and mess up the sand dome. I find it extremely irritating that they go through so much effort and get so much right, but still miss the little things. Like that sand dome. WTF.
I don't want to bash Bachmann, and I love my K4, but dang this scares me.

Josh, you nailed it. For the typical Bachmann buyer, if one train breaks and is unrepairable, getting replacement - even of a different engine - is likely acceptable. The fly here now is that by saying no to their replacement offer, Bachmann can and may well say, that they tried to make a warrantee repair and the offer was refused, so future repairs are at cost - unless the little card now says it's a lifetime thing.

I don't  think we can fairly fault a company for not having parts for an infinite time. Some of the old Kato stuff - their GP 50 and GP38 come to mind - are hard to fix now unless you have a spare. Eventually every company stops servicing products after a certain age, or we quit getting them fixed because it's more economical to buy a newer more advanced model with better features. However, not being able to make repairs after so short a time is disappointing, but not surprising to me. I'm willing to give em the benefit of the doubt that they sold more than planned.

If you want a K4 to run, sounds like the best option is buy another tender (or see if Bachmann will provide a replacement tender) and find someone who knows who made the sound card and buy a new one or add a better quality one. I bet Petski or Victor would do the repairs for ya for a reasonable charge.