Great Northern Indiana - Dining car

[Puddington]

Hello all you hard core GN experts.... can anyone shed any prototype information on the new MTL heavyweight ding car?

Not that its a game breaker but I'm curious if its close to a prototype, if there is another style HW dining car used by the GN or did all GN patrons eat all meals at a Fred Harvey...

Thanks in advance 

[jmlaboda]

Great Northern, from long, long ago, used numbers on their dining cars all the way back to early wood dining cars.  Not sure where the name came from.

[wcfn100]

Great Northern, from long, long ago, used numbers on their dining cars all the way back to early wood dining cars.  Not sure where the name came from.

From what I can find the GN had 22 state named 36 seat dining cars starting in 1924.

Jason

[nkalanaga]

I know they had one named Minnesota.  Beyond that I don't have any data, because steam-era GN trains are a little out of my era...  The GN didn't serve Indiana, but that wouldn't keep them from using the name.

Unless the MT model is a GN prototype, putting an unused state name on it would be a good idea, in my opinion.  Instead of being "wrong", it could be considered "freelanced", as though the GN had maybe bought the car second-hand and named it to fit the others.

[jmlaboda]

The 1930 Diagram book I have for the GN has no names mentioned for any dining cars but that is not to say that they didn't name them... it may just be that such was not documented on the diagrams.

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[wcfn100]

Great Northern reference sheet 110 is supposed to have some info on this but I don't have one to be sure.

http://www.gnrhs.org/store/product-info-mbr.php?pid170.html

Jason

[Sokramiketes]

The state series diners were used on the Oriental Limited and Empire Builder if I remember correctly.

[mplsjct]

"Lines East" by Patrick Dorin lists dining car 1048 as named Indiana, from number series 1030-1051, seating capacity 36, originally used on the Empire Builder and Oriental Limited (as previously mentioned), length over buffers 83' 10", car was rebuilt to a Mail-Baggage car numbered 96 in December of 1952.

Excellent book, by the way.

[nkalanaga]

I also found #1046 "New York' listed in a consist of the Western Star, as a second diner for a bunch of tour group Pullmans, so the GN obviously didn't limit their names to states they served.

[jmlaboda]

Looking through my notes for GN Maintenance of Way cars I have found that 1043 was named Pennsylvania, so there is another named car outside the area of the lines service.  This car was later rebuilt to baggage - express and then, when retired, was used as an outfit car for MofW service as GN X7846...

[jmlaboda]

Looking at a file that contains Empire Builder consists for December 1944 I am surprised that the diners are not shown having any names.  While it could be because the names were just not entered it may be that because they no longer carried names while in service.  Cars are from the 1030 - 1049 series were in use but I am surprised that there were not Pullmans in the consists between Seattle and Spokane (but all of these consists were the 2nd or 3rd Sections for this train) except for two consists that had four to five cars being used for troop movements.

[nkalanaga]

At least some had names as late as the late 50s, in the Western Star consists in the Four Ways West book.  I suspect that they're not in your consist because whoever did it felt that just the number was enough.

[Nato]

        The Burlington also had one or was it two state named diners as part of the Empire Builder equipment pool In several books there are photos of state series diners after they were modernized, the paired windows were retained, but were sealed thermopane units, and the cars were painted in the orange and green color scheme. Nate Goodman (Nato). 

[jmlaboda]

The Burlington also had one or was it two state named diners as part of the Empire Builder equipment pool

I am fortunate to have a copy of Bill Click's excellent book Burlington Passenger Car Roster and in it I found that no heavyweight Burlington dining cars carried "state" names.  That said, the cars that did carry "state" names were wood vestibuled cafe - parlor cars and, aside from one that was rebuilt as a business car for the C&S, all were gone by 1933.  Not sure what type of car you are seeing but it is doubtful that, if it is a Burlington car with a state name that its a diner.  A number of cars were named for cities but not states.

When the "Q" modernized their heavyweight diners they were rebuilt with wide Thermopane windows replacing the paired windows in the cars.   Nato, by chance is this one of the cars you are talking about?

http://www.gn-npjointarchive.org/Lists/GN_Newby_Photos1/DispForm.aspx?ID=883

It is a GN car that formerly was formerly GN 1060, ex-1031, nee-7001 Wisconsin.

Looking at another of Bill Glick's books, Burlington Passenger Car Photo Album, I was surprised to see that there were some similarities between the PRR prototype that MT has used and Burlington dining cars in the 178 - 184 series.  The window patterns were somewhat similar, with the "Q" cars having paired windows instead of the single wide window used on the model, with five shallow windows on the aisle side of the kitchen area while five windows were also found in the kitchen area.  While not quite right at least it is closer to what the prototype had and may even be able to be rebuilt to represent a closer representation of the prototype cars.

Again, no evidence that diners were named for states... and both of these books are pretty inclusive works.

[CBQ Fan]

I am fortunate to have a copy of Bill Click's excellent book Burlington Passenger Car Roster and in it I found that no heavyweight Burlington dining cars carried "state" names.  That said, the cars that did carry "state" names were wood vestibuled cafe - parlor cars and, aside from one that was rebuilt as a business car for the C&S, all were gone by 1933.  Not sure what type of car you are seeing but it is doubtful that, if it is a Burlington car with a state name that its a diner.  A number of cars were named for cities but not states.

When the "Q" modernized their heavyweight diners they were rebuilt with wide Thermopane windows replacing the paired windows in the cars.   Nato, by chance is this one of the cars you are talking about?

http://www.gn-npjointarchive.org/Lists/GN_Newby_Photos1/DispForm.aspx?ID=883

It is a GN car that formerly was formerly GN 1060, ex-1031, nee-7001 Wisconsin.

Looking at another of Bill Glick's books, Burlington Passenger Car Photo Album, I was surprised to see that there were some similarities between the PRR prototype that MT has used and Burlington dining cars in the 178 - 184 series.  The window patterns were somewhat similar, with the "Q" cars having paired windows instead of the single wide window used on the model, with five shallow windows on the aisle side of the kitchen area while five windows were also found in the kitchen area.  While not quite right at least it is closer to what the prototype had and may even be able to be rebuilt to represent a closer representation of the prototype cars.

Again, no evidence that diners were named for states... and both of these books are pretty inclusive works.

I just received all of Bills's books.  I was pleasantly shocked at how nice all these books are!  Unless you see them in person photos just don't do it justice!