Author Topic: Fast track switches question  (Read 4901 times)

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SD452XR

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Fast track switches question
« on: November 17, 2015, 02:39:44 PM »
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Question for the guys that have built #6 and #7 fast track switches: Do you guys built them as hinge points or solid point? Was wondering if the solid points put to much strain on the solder joints and tortoise machines and these smaller switches. I plan on using solid points for the larger switches, like #10's.

chrismears

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Re: Fast track switches question
« Reply #1 on: November 17, 2015, 03:25:01 PM »
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Though I'm not using the fixtures, I do build track using the same soldered method as Fast Tracks use. I don't hinge my point blades and haven't noticed any more problem with the longer turnouts. The last round were #8's and so far so good.

In fact, those #8's were on my last shelf layout which no longer fit in our house and has been living in our unheated shed for a year now, through a cold Canadian winter and pretty nice summer. Still, so far, so good.

/chris

engineshop

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Re: Fast track switches question
« Reply #2 on: November 17, 2015, 03:27:57 PM »
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I use solid points but file down the base of the rail on both sides (red lines).  Even in HO it does not really show that the bases are missing.


SP-Wolf

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Re: Fast track switches question
« Reply #3 on: November 17, 2015, 03:45:40 PM »
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I too, go with the unhinged (solid) point rails. Mine have been in place and use for over 5 years. No issues. When I repair an Atlas turnout, I replace the hinged point rail with solid ones.

Thanks,
Wolf

peteski

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Re: Fast track switches question
« Reply #4 on: November 17, 2015, 05:29:05 PM »
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While I haven't scratchbuilt any turnouts (yet), looking back at my experience with commercially made turnouts I would also go with continuous point/closure rail.  Much more electrically reliable that way.  I also like the idea of filing down the base of the rail do be an narrow the web.  That will make the rail much more flexible.  But I don't think that has to be done over a long stretch of the rail.  I think that just filing down about 1/4" of the web (at the location where the real turnout would have the point hinge) will make the rail flexible enough.  After all, the throw distance of the N scale points is only around 1/16".  There isn't all that much flexing going on.
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jdcolombo

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Re: Fast track switches question
« Reply #5 on: November 17, 2015, 05:35:23 PM »
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Question for the guys that have built #6 and #7 fast track switches: Do you guys built them as hinge points or solid point? Was wondering if the solid points put to much strain on the solder joints and tortoise machines and these smaller switches. I plan on using solid points for the larger switches, like #10's.

I've got several #6's and two #4's (!) that were built with solid points.  Used a jig for the #6's; #4's were built without a jig but using the same overall technique.  Been on the layout now for two years, used regularly in switching moves in operating sessions.  Points are moved with a Tortoise and a stiffer throw wire.  While the layout basement room is temperature-controlled, humidity does vary a lot from summer to winter.  But no problems at all with these switches, and they are much better operationally than my Atlas Code 55 #5's and #7's.  If I had it all to do over again, I would have hand-built all the turnouts.

John C.

Santa Fe Guy

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Re: Fast track switches question
« Reply #6 on: November 17, 2015, 06:21:57 PM »
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I modified all of my Micro Engineering Code 55 #6 turnouts and on the first 40 or so used solid rail. Did not put enough of a fillet of solder on the rail and PCB joint and some have come apart. Once re soldered they work well. On the rest (over 60) I left them hinged, added a PCB throw bar but made sure both sides of the hinge was wired by adding a small gauge wire under the turnout across the hinge. Only a couple have failed again due to me being stingy with the solder again at the throw bar. I now use M/T medium profile 33 inch wheels and if any fail I can add a bit bigger fillet.
Trust this is of help.
Rod.
Santafesd40.blogspot.com

chrismears

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Re: Fast track switches question
« Reply #7 on: November 17, 2015, 07:06:39 PM »
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I use solid points but file down the base of the rail on both sides (red lines).  Even in HO it does not really show that the bases are missing.
I like the idea of filing away the rail base.

In N I've only used code 40 or 55 but I've been showing my friends how to build turnouts, using this method. With their heavier rail it might be worthwhile to think about thinning out even just one side's foot for a little more flex in the blade.

Neat tip.


/chris

jagged ben

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Re: Fast track switches question
« Reply #8 on: November 17, 2015, 07:56:14 PM »
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Solid rails here, too.  Half a dozen turnouts on the club layout, of various ages, none broken yet.

The stress on the throwbar is greater with smaller turnouts, so if you're making #4s and #6s that argues more for hinged points.   If you're building #8s and #10s (or #12s, or #14s), then the stress drawbacks of solid closure rails are much less.

I'm sure Robert will chime in at some point (pun intended!) with his advanced techniques for making throwbars, which further lessen the stress on the throwbar and the likelihood of them breaking.

A final point:  There's a hundred or so older turnouts on the club layout with hinged points.  They break off the throwbars, too, with some regularity.  Getting the right balance of rigidity on the wire from the Tortoise to the throwbar is probably of greater consequence than hinged or solid.  The other big factor is the environment.


robert3985

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Re: Fast track switches question
« Reply #9 on: November 18, 2015, 12:09:24 AM »
+1
Yup, I'm chiming in on this subject..   :D

The main problem area of any hand-built turnout is the movable switch, composed of closure rails, hinges, closure points and a throwbar at the toes of the closure points. 

Since we're building a model of a prototype track fixture, if we want to retain a high degree of realism, the problems associated with this part of the turnout get exacerbated and we are forced to expend more time, energy and expense on making our turnout model look "real".

However, at some point, we usually become happy with a turnout that looks okay, and works flawlessly.  Working flawlessly, in my experience, takes precedence over looking "real".  In a perfect world, you should be able to have both prototype appearance and operational perfection, but then you run into a huge expenditure of time...so, I'll let you know, from what building literally thousands of turnouts over the past 30 years has shown me, what works for me as far as hand-laid turnouts are concerned.

Operationally, the one-piece closure rail/closure point (solid rail) works very well...with a couple of caveats.  The most important caveat is to allow them free movement from only a few ties in front of the frog to the closure point toes.  The actual "hinge" of this monolithic piece is near the frog, and the length of the rails allows enough flex to absorb the torsion caused by moving a solid parallelogram.  Make sure that your rails are properly bent so they retain their gauge when thrown both ways...you can't "fudge" this area.
Also, make sure you construct the toes of your closure points so that you have as much excess metal on the inside at the foot of the rail as possible, or bend up a small brass rectangle and solder this over the rail foot to reinforce it.   This should make for a trouble free switch that should last for years in normal operation.

From an appearance standpoint, the monolithic closure rail/closure point protocol doesn't look too great...it's "okay"...and if you're happy with "okay" then there's no reason to read further.  However, if you like the kink that defines the dividing point between the heel of the closure point and the end of the closure rail, then you need to use a hinge here...which is called a "heel-block".  Filing away the rail foot on either side of the rail or filing a notch on either side to make the rails more flexible sounds like a quick and dirty way of making a hinge, but if you solder your closure rails at the heel-blocks to a PCB tie, you've created a small, solid parallelogram with very little flex that most likely will cause your soldered closure point toes to separate from your PCB tie throwbar, sometimes even de-laminating the copper cladding from the underlying fiberglass.  This problem gets worse the smaller the turnout is....because the "switch" becomes shorter and less flexible.

There are at least three ways to alleviate any attachment problems at the switch of your turnout if you want the added prototypical look of actual heel blocks.
(1) The easiest way is to snip a nickel silver railjoiner in half and solder it cleanly to the ends of your closure rails protruding over the PCB tie they're soldered to...then insert the heels of your finished closure points into these snug-fitting railjoiners, and solder the toes to your PCB throwbar (having made them so there's as much railfoot left on the inside of the toes as possible).  This allows the closure point heels to slide a little back and forth in the hinge so that a solid parallelogram is never constructed, which takes almost all of the torque off of the throwbar...and will make this assembly very reliable...just like ME #6 turnouts are constructed.  If you worry about electrical conductivity, then it's very easy to solder a small, flexible wire between the closure point and the adjacent rail...as close to the heel block hinge as you can.  OR, you can lube this area with Neolube, which should retain electrical conductivity.

(2) If you want a very realistic heel block hinge, Proto87 Stores makes a nickel silver fixture that look very prototypical, and which takes the place of the snipped railjoiner.  I use them on every turnout I build nowadays, and I am 100% happy with this simple product.  I solder them to both the closure rail's and the adjacent rail's feet, then slide the heel of the closure point into the assembly.  Works great!...and looks great too.  Here are a couple of photos:
 
Photo (1) Proto87 Stores NS Heelblock Etchings on a Turnout Assembly During Construction on my Drawing Table:


Photo (2) Proto87 Stores NS Heelblock Etching In Place and Operational at Emory Center Siding:


(3) If you're worried enough about electrical conductivity that you want to have monolithic closure rail/closure points, AND you want it to look more prototypical, then use a small triangular jeweler's file to file notches into your rail at where you'll be locating the heel block hinge.  File these notches on either side of the rail exactly opposite from each other.  File until you "kiss" the rail web...then file a bit more so there is just a very thin piece of the web of the rail acting as a hinge.  In 30 years, I've never had one of these break, in either code 70, code 55 or code 40.  Here's a photo of my "notch" hinges:

Photo (3) "Notch" Hinges in Code 55 Hand-laid Turnout:


However, now you are going to have to hinge the toes of your closure points to the throwbar, which is not a simple task, but isn't overly complex either.  I use .015" brass wire to form the hinge...here are a couple of photos of my closure point toe hinges at the throwbar:

Photo (4) Top View of My Hinged Throwbars:


Photo (5) Bottom View of My Hinged Throwbars:


What's important here is to make these hinges tight enough to hold the closure point toes fairly snuggly against your PCB throwbar, and, at the same time, ensure that you don't solder the rails to the PCB throwbars.  I use a sharp #2 pencil to mark the surface of both rail and PCB tie anywhere I don't want solder to go.  As an added benefit, the graphite acts as a lubricant as well as an anti-flux.  Drill the holes in the rail feet first while you're constructing your closure points, but only drill one hole in your PCB throwbar.  Solder your wire hinge to the top surface of the PCB tie while inserting it through both pre-drilled holes in the closure point and PCB throwbar, then bend the wire tightly on the bottom of the throwbar and snip off the excess (you can solder the wire to the bottom PCB surface too if you wish)...then position the other closure point toe properly and use the pre-drilled hole in its foot as a fixture to properly locate and drill the second hole in your PCB throwbar.  Then, solder your wire hinge onto the second closure point toe/PCB tie assembly.   This is all to make sure that you are not constructing a small, sturdy solid parallelogram...which is a bad thing. Don't ask me how I know this.

Here's a drawing I've posted elsewhere to more clearly 'splain how I make my throwbar hinges:

Photo (6) My Throwbar Construction Drawing:


Interestingly, the "solid parallelogram" problem isn't a problem using code 40 rail.  I assume there's enough flex in it to compensate for the torque being applied at the throwbar when the switch is thrown.

Here's a photo of some of my 20+ year old code 40 turnouts in my Park City Yard, working as well as the first day I installed 'em using the "notch" hinges at the heel blocks and soldered tabs fashioned from the closure points' railfeet bent at a 90 deg. angle (no hinges) at the PCB throwbar.  I don't recommend this method, even though in code 40, it hasn't been a problem for me.  In code 55 and 70 it is a HUGE problem.

Photo (7) Trouble-free Code 40 "Notch" Heel Block Turnouts in My Park City Yard:


Hope this helps you make a decision you're happy with!

Cheerio!
Bob Gilmore


« Last Edit: November 18, 2015, 12:45:09 AM by robert3985 »

peteski

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Re: Fast track switches question
« Reply #10 on: November 18, 2015, 12:42:25 AM »
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Nice writeup Robert, but I only see photo 3 in your post - others are missing.
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robert3985

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Re: Fast track switches question
« Reply #11 on: November 18, 2015, 12:47:45 AM »
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Nice writeup Robert, but I only see photo 3 in your post - others are missing.

Peteski...reload the page, I was editing...

Cheerio!
Bob Gilmore

nkalanaga

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Re: Fast track switches question
« Reply #12 on: November 18, 2015, 01:50:46 AM »
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Robert's photo 3 looks like the way I did my #8 dual-gauge turnouts, because there wasn't room for long flexible points for the standard gauge rail.   They throw fine, although the points still have a tendency to come loose from the throwbars, as others have mentioned.  They resolder easily enough.

My usual throwbars are 1/16 inch square brass tube, with the area just outside the points filed a little thinner and insulated with paper.   That works fine on standard turnouts, but the dual-gauge ones would have to be insulated between the standard and narrow gauge points, with the narrow gauge and common-rail points connected.  So on those I cut the throwbar in half, insulated it in the middle, insulated all of the points from the frog, and connected them to the stock rails.  They depend on the slide switch I used for the switch throw as the only feed for the frog.  Insulating it in the center was something of a pain, as I had to find an insulated rod that would fit into the tubing, but a piece of 0.02 inch brass rod wrapped in paper and glued in worked.  That part hasn't failed yet.  This seems to be the idea behind "DCC friendly" turnouts, although I use DC, and built the turnouts before DCC mainstream.

N Kalanaga
Be well

wcfn100

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Re: Fast track switches question
« Reply #13 on: November 18, 2015, 02:34:40 AM »
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If you're using the Fast Tracks templates you should probably go with a solid point because that's how they are designed.  To use a hinge point, you should might want to find a more prototypical drawing than what Fast Tracks offers (one that at least specifies switch length (which refers to the point rail length) and switch angle (not to be confused with frog angle)).


Jason

robert3985

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Re: Fast track switches question
« Reply #14 on: November 18, 2015, 03:05:55 AM »
+1
If you're using the Fast Tracks templates you should probably go with a solid point because that's how they are designed.  To use a hinge point, you should might want to find a more prototypical drawing than what Fast Tracks offers (one that at least specifies switch length (which refers to the point rail length) and switch angle (not to be confused with frog angle)).


Jason

How about this....

Photo (1) Prototype Turnout Drawings Scaled to N-scale:


Proto 87: Stores also has turnout templates in N-scale which are VERY detailed here: http://www.proto87.com/handlaid_track_templates.html

Cheerio!
Bob Gilmore