Rumors of Bachmann N Scale K4

[eja]

Bachmann's decision to go with DCC/sound in these locos is virtually certainly the result of a very considered decision based on internal cost assessments vs. market share.  I'd prefer a "bare" DC version, because I stripped out the sound decoder from the Berk to install my own.   But I get the fact that they have presumably made a sound business decision that there aren't many Colombo's around, a

Verry funny or perhaps unintentional   ???

[Joetrain59]

So, WILL this loco run on a DC layout? I'm confused by posts here, and the Bman ad.
 Joe D

[Leggy]

All DCC locomotives can run on DC.

[reinhardtjh]

So, WILL this loco run on a DC layout? I'm confused by posts here, and the Bman ad.
 Joe D

Yes.  According to the Soundtraxx Factory Installed decoder info page they are dual-mode, i.e. runs on both DC and DCC.

I really don't get all the pouting about the supposed flaws of the Berkshire... Every Bachmann Berkshire I have seen is a well running model right out of the box. And of the six or seven that I've seen running, only one had a slight wobble, but it was more than likely just some iffy trackage causing it.

I've acquired 6 of the C&O Berkshires Kanawhas from various places and have tested 5 so far and every one has had some amount of the hitch problem in the low speed end.  This is running on a simple Unitrack test oval so hardly any iffy track work involved.

I really hope that the K4s doesn't have this same (or other problem), but even if it does I expect with some time invested I can make them run satisfactorily.  And it would be less work than converting a Kato C55 chassis (I have 5 that may be available soon) or fixing a 30+ year old Minitrix model or (in the case of the Berk) re-arranging the domes and front end details.  I don't expect everyone to feel this way, but it's what works for me.

I'm wondering if they will have the proper PRR whistle sounds.

I sure hope so.  The Soundtraxx Sound Value decoder in their HO K4s has 3 choices, the Banshee, a Reading 6-chime and a Baldwin B4g (whatever that means).  From what I've found in research, the Banshee would not be correct for PRR passenger locomotives however.   Testing the sounds make me think that the Baldwin might be a close approximation of the PRR 3-chime passenger whistle.  An interesting discussion of PRR whistles is in this thread on the Railway Preservation New forum "Steam Whistle Question...."

[peteski]

So, WILL this loco run on a DC layout? I'm confused by posts here, and the Bman ad.
 Joe D

I don't know of even a single DCC decoder which does not support analog (DC) mode.  That feature might even be part of the original NMRA spec (too lazy to try to look it up).  The analog mode can be disabled if desired, but most (if not all) decoders have the analog mode enabled.

What can be problematic is that the analog mode of some decoders is not quite as smooth as if the loc had no decoder installed at all.  The problem can be also with compatibility with some DC throttles (which do not supply filtered DC) or ones which have pulse mode.  Plus sound decoders are also not very DC friendly as they do not even start up until your throttle is cranked up to over 50% of its speed range.

I recently tried Athearn F45 with a Tsunami decoder on DC power and even at 12V the loco was barely crawling.  It took around 16V to have the loco move at a decent speed.

[jdcolombo]

Adding the decoder cannot be adding $50 to Bachmann's cost on this.
If it adds more than 10 bucks to their expense, I'd be surprised.

But how much does it allow them to raise the price to the consumer?   I think that's where the business
decision comes in. 

Even at the "street price" level, the differential between DC and DCC pricing would have to be at least
$50 (say, $150 vs $200).   And that's a mighty good markup on a $10 investment.

Hi Max.

I meant that the sound install probably doesn't add more than $50 to the retail price of what the engine would have sold for without the decoder.   You are correct that Bachmann's cost is probably even a fraction of that.   Bachmann's calculation is pretty simple: we can sell enough of these with the Sound Value decoder installed to offset any lost sales as a result of the price increase, and we make more profit in the end.  Easy call if you know your market.

And to Eja: "sound business decision" was pun unintended.   But a good choice of words nonetheless 

I will say that despite my disappointment with the slow-speed running qualities of the Berkshire, I am tickled to see Bachmann take up the space in the N scale steam market.  Their stuff has gotten orders of magnitude better over time, and there's no reason to think it won't continue as long as we as consumers continue to demand higher quality and are willing to pay for it.  I hope the K4 is another 2-8-0 in overall quality, because they will sell a ton of them, and that positive feedback loop will lead to more steam in the future (how about a 4-6-4 Hudson, Bachmann, or a 2-10-4, ora re-run of the EM-1 as a DMIR Yellowstone, or . . . ).  With all the possibilities, I want nothing but huge success for their products so they keep pushing the envelope.

John C.

[Doug G.]

I don't know of even a single DCC decoder which does not support analog (DC) mode.  That feature might even be part of the original NMRA spec (too lazy to try to look it up).  The analog mode can be disabled if desired, but most (if not all) decoders have the analog mode enabled.

What can be problematic is that the analog mode of some decoders is not quite as smooth as if the loc had no decoder installed at all.  The problem can be also with compatibility with some DC throttles (which do not supply filtered DC) or ones which have pulse mode.  Plus sound decoders are also not very DC friendly as they do not even start up until your throttle is cranked up to over 50% of its speed range.

I recently tried Athearn F45 with a Tsunami decoder on DC power and even at 12V the loco was barely crawling.  It took around 16V to have the loco move at a decent speed.

So then, those particular decoders could not really be said to support DC mode being there are fairly major discrepencies. To be said to support DC mode, I would expect the loco to run almost exactly as a normal DC locomotive does - about 2 - 3 volts (from the power pack) starting voltage, etc.

Doug

[nscaler711]

I've acquired 6 of the C&O Berkshires

C&O did not have Berkshires. They had Kanawha's. 


Ok back to your yammering....

[towl1996]

I don't care if SPF's or non SPF's point out the cosmetic short comings of this loco, because ultimately how this loco performs will determine if it is a success or failure.

Is the tender correct? I didn't read any comments on it and I haven't checked to see.

Should be interesting to see what parts become available, I still have two motorman motors waiting to go into a couple of conversions, and almost went so far as to have Max grind the flanges down to start the process last year

Am I happy Bachmann is the one doing this loco? I have mixed feelings. I hope it's not a steaming pile...pun intended.

[reinhardtjh]

C&O did not have Berkshires. They had Kanawha's. 


Ok back to your yammering....

Fixed, Mr. Smarty Pants.  It was late...  At least someone read my post. 

[Joetrain59]

I don't know of even a single DCC decoder which does not support analog (DC) mode.  That feature might even be part of the original NMRA spec (too lazy to try to look it up).  The analog mode can be disabled if desired, but most (if not all) decoders have the analog mode enabled.

What can be problematic is that the analog mode of some decoders is not quite as smooth as if the loc had no decoder installed at all.  The problem can be also with compatibility with some DC throttles (which do not supply filtered DC) or ones which have pulse mode.  Plus sound decoders are also not very DC friendly as they do not even start up until your throttle is cranked up to over 50% of its speed range.

I recently tried Athearn F45 with a Tsunami decoder on DC power and even at 12V the loco was barely crawling.  It took around 16V to have the loco move at a decent speed.

 My Athearn Challenger acts the same way, at least 12V to start the sound, and a bit more V to get it moving.
Joe D

[victor miranda]

 here is a post from a few years back...
not much has changed...

http://forum.atlasrr.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=58592&whichpage=4

when that goes stale
here is the text

"maybe we can get model power to make one also....

I guess that bachmann could make a K4 and
it might be worth buying....
when I consider the more recent steamers they have made. I am rather confident it will be a kit.

Forgive me If I don't run over to b-mann's
forum and ask them to make it.

I want one bad enough that I would not be able to resist buying one.
I want it to be worth buying.
Darned near anyone else!
That strikes me as the way to go.

v

about the costs of DCC and sound in a model;
I will grant adding it as the only option is a Business Decision

the important part is the price for the extra option had to be nominal
for it to be a a good decision.

If keeping track of the extra inventory is a problem
the decision may exceed nominal additional pricing.

lets chase an assumption that 99 bucks buys a new J without DCC
or a new 4-6-0 with DCC.

so one can reasonably assume the new K4 without DCC/snd
is a 100 dollar item and the sound option is the balance...

here is a personal buying decision about the loco;
I am unlikely to purchase the latest offering because I do not want
the doubled price tag...

.... what really irks me is that this is going to be the n-scale k4 for a VERY loooong time.

victor



   

[TVRR]

I for one am delighted with the news of pre and post war K4s. My experience with the last 6 B'mann steamers I've bought has been very good, just luck maybe but very pleased. I've replaced the decoders with ESU Soundlok units as is policy here and they run every bit as well as Kato, Athearn, and Concor steamers. Thank you Bachmann, I'm waiting anxiously for mine.

[peteski]

So then, those particular decoders could not really be said to support DC mode being there are fairly major discrepencies. To be said to support DC mode, I would expect the loco to run almost exactly as a normal DC locomotive does - about 2 - 3 volts (from the power pack) starting voltage, etc.

Doug

It is all in how you interpret the word "compatibility".  Remember the Clinton/Lewinsky trials?   

BTW, all sound decoders behave in this way as they need much higher voltage to properly power the sound system.  Some need lass, some need more initial voltage. But they all run in a very limited upper range of the DC throttle.

[peteski]

I will say that despite my disappointment with the slow-speed running qualities of the Berkshire, I am tickled to see Bachmann take up the space in the N scale steam market.  Their stuff has gotten orders of magnitude better over time, and there's no reason to think it won't continue as long as we as consumers continue to demand higher quality and are willing to pay for it.  ...With all the possibilities, I want nothing but huge success for their products so they keep pushing the envelope.

John C.

John,
the problem with quality is that Bachmann will never be like any other company (Kato for example).  It has more to to with the overall culture of the company than with anything else.

In order to make better models, they would have to hire new engineers to rethink their designs, hire new new manufacturing companies and possibly new equipment (to improve their spotty quality) and use better materials.

If you haven't, take one of the Kato steamers apart (any one of them) and do the same with a Bachmann model. If you compare them you will see the much more advanced engineering of all the parts (the way they are molded and how precisely they fit) in a Kato. Even simple tings like the edge of flat brass electric pickup strip (it is smooth on a Kato-made part and has a sharp rough edge on a Bachmann model).  Kato's overall design is so much more advanced than Bachmann. But even Kato sometimes makes mistakes (like overengineering some components or making them too delicate for the average modeler).  However in a long run, Kato models have much more consistent quality than Bachmann.

Sure, some Bachmann models will run well and last long time (even if there are glue spots all over the model and some parts are glued on crooked), but quite a few will have problems right out of the box, or develop problems after some running time.  Models from Kato feature much cleaned and neater assembly and most of them will run well right out of the box, and will last a very long time. Sure, there are exceptions (like cracked axle tubes on GS-4), but the odds are that your Kato model will be better (in the areas I mentioned earlier) than a Bachmann.

I used Kato as an example because they seem to be one of the top quality manufacturers of N scale models.  If someone doesn't see that then they aren't looking hard enough.  I suspect that the major reason for the high quality is that Kato models are designed and manufactured in Japan.  Look at the Kato's Volvo tractor trailers sets (the vehicles). Those are made in China and the overall quality of those (paint and assembly) is not quite as good as their Japanese made models.