What can make Z scale better?

[strummer]

Availability of parts would be nice. I just picked up a couple of engines (Marklin 0-6-0 and an MT F unit); neither of them run, and I'm finding it difficult to track down replacement parts...

Mark in Oregon

[nkalanaga]

If you haven't tried them, Republic Locomotive Works might have parts.  Marshall used to keep a lot of Marklin and MT parts for kitbashers, and he might have what you need.

Off topic:  There are TWO Republic Locomotive companies.  Marshal Thompson makes and sells mostly Nn3, and the other one makes full-size locomotives.

The one you want:
https://www.republiclocomotiveworks.com/

The prototype manufacturer:
http://www.republiclocomotive.com

[strummer]

...thank you...

Mark in Oregon

[Sokramiketes]

TRACK!

I amassed a large fleet of modern BNSF equipment, enough to build and operate a Scenic Sub layout.  But the track situation held back progress and isn't easily rectified.  Sure you can use Fast Track jigs, but do you know how many ties you have to place per foot???

The MTL flex track just isn't the answer for large layouts.  Besides the Code 65 rail (not Code 55, which would be an improvement...but still not Code 40 or better) the 11" pieces are even shorter after you clip off the weird ramped ties at the end (that don't follow the profile of a railjoiner) and the donut ties in the middle (for track spikes).  Pretty soon you're paying like $10/ft for Z scale track with a joint every 10 inches.  That's fine for a cutesy guitar case layout, but not for a nice size home layout built for operations.

I've found that the running quality is just fine these days, and don't think it would have been a hindrance for the mainline action I wanted to model.  And I was probably short a dozen Dash-9's, but AZL had them on their radar.

No, it all came down to track and I'm moving that layout idea back to the N scale pile because of it.  Let me know if anyone wants to buy a collection of BNSF stuff in Z... 

[Kuchler10]

I am not a Z modeler, but I think I can give a little different perspective on Z scale in general. I was at the Greenberg Show in Edison NJ scouring tables for N Scale items, and I came across a Z scale vendor. He had a decent selection of items, and I picked up a Full Throttle 2-pack of hoppers to examine them. They looked pretty good, about as good as I could have expected them to look, but then I saw the price- $44! I was blown away. As an N scale modeler, there is a threshold for what I would be willing to pay for any item. $20 a car is about max in most cases. For a locomotive, spending more than $300 for something non-brass is ridiculous. I could not imagine justifying paying $44 for cars that take up a few cubed centimeters of space, if even that much. The scale is so small I can't justify paying for it at current prices. MAYBE I would pay $90 for a good Z diesel. MAYBE I would pay $12 a car. Anything more than that and I wouldn't pull the trigger. I am sure that HO modelers would feel the same way about N and O modelers about HO and so on, but there has to be a threshold for what you would pay for an item. At the same show there was a G scale group running an A-A E8 set with 8 passenger cars. That was probably half a semester of my tuition going by. I was talking to a guy from an O scale club with three modern UP diesels pulling 60 cars or so and he told be a grand plus $50 a car just went by. I don't understand that at all. I can see how paying $400 in HO for a Broadway Limited locomotive with sound, DCC, marker lights, etc. makes sense to an HO modeler with the room and layout to enjoy it, but I would take 2 decent steamers from Bachmann in N over that. That is why I think that N has the draw that it does. It doesn't take up that much space, it's cheaper (in general) than Z, HO and the other scales, you can SEE the damned thing, and, at least to me, paying the prices that I do for the equipment is reasonable and justifiable. Maybe Z will eventually drop in price and overtake N, but at the moment, I think N is king of the scales and will probably stay that way. Z scale has the potential because of its size. I think that is what N had when it became popular, but the size might also be its biggest flaw in that it is hard to justify the prices required to make it, there is a large percentage of the modeling community that will probably need a magnifying glass to do any kind of work in Z, thus averting the popularity that would bring those prices down (not to say some might need one for N, but it is a smaller number), and on top of that, the size allows for a large layout and long trains- both of which command high budgets. I may eventually do some kind of Z modeling, but I wouldn't convert from N or hold my breath about getting a full and diverse selection of products. To answer the question posed in the thread title: Price. How that gets done is up to you current Z modelers because I don't think you will receive much help. Sorry for the negativity, but that is the way I see it from the perspective of someone who is slightly intrigued, but very skeptical.

[basementcalling]

What this scale needs is more cowbell.

[peteski]

Kuchler10:
H0 scale is still the "king" of all the model RR scales by a wide margin, and it is not going to be dethroned anytime soon.  Sure, there will be some people griping about the model RR items' prices in in any scale, but there are still lots of modelers who gobble up all the new offerings in H0 (and in other scales).

As far as prices go, the models produced nowadays have much higher detail level than older models so the price is higher than you would have paid 20 years ago. Plus the inflation comes into play.  I remember picking up the (crude by today's standard) Atlas 40' boxcars for $5 and Bachmann (again, rather crude) locos for $20 or $30 back in the 80s at a local hobby shop.

If currently your upper price limit for N scale boxcar is $20, have you seen the MSRP on any of the Micro-Trains cars lately? Many are over $20. Same goes for cars from other manufacturers.  Unless you are buying the low-end Trainman-stype cars (which are made from the same molds as the $5 cars Which I was buying 30 years ago). Times are changing and prices just keep going up.

I do agree that the price is a factor for Z scale models, but I really think that it is just one of several major factors deterring modelers from getting seriously into Z scale.

[ztrack]

Mike have you considered going Peco? This is really the defacto flex track for Z scale and comes in 36' sections. The tie spacing matches Marklin though, not the more realistic MTL tie spacing.

Yes we definitely need more cowbell...

Okay price. Here we go boys. This is the same question that I have talked about for twenty years. It is a chicken and an egg. If you want prices to go down, we need manufacturers to produce more products. With volume comes better pricing. But to produce more, we need more Z scalers. To get more Z scalers, lower pricing helps. And we come full circle.

AZL has been working to lower pricing. The recent GP7/9 and SD70 runs are an example of that. But at the same time, we are getting greater demands for more details especially prototype specific detailing. With that, costs due increase. Frankly, I am all for the details, but not everyone is. MTL has done a good job to keep pricing fairly static. Additionally, dealers are asking we increase the MSRP. This is one reason why pricing on some products is higher on the new runs. Full Throttle is a bargain at $44.00 a car set. And here is a little behind the scenes information and why FT is a bargain.

See, those who don't work behind the curtains don't know how much hand work is going on behinds the scenes. I am not talking about in factories somewhere, I am talking in our offices and shops. Full Throttle is a one man company. Yes, he has a factory produce the cars, and pad prints them, but he does all of his own assembly. In some cases, he even does his own paint. All packaging is done by him. Full Throttle is an amazing company with an owner the cares deeply about the scale and is products quality. That is worth $22.00 a car in my opinion.

AZL, every single locomotive that comes into our offices is unpacked, inspected, test run for upwards of 10 minutes per locomotive, and then repackaged before we ship to our dealers. Most model train companies simply move a locomotive from one box to another. Not us. The owners of AZL and myself (as Distributor) all agree that we want this level of quality control. About 99% of the time, there is not an issue. It is that 1% we worry about.

Now the comment I am going to probably get flamed for. The helmet is on. Do prices need to actually increase in model railroading? Here is why I ask this. Brick and mortar stores are closing left and right. The margins are not there for dealers to continue. We only have ourselves to blame. We want everything cheaper and thus purchase through the least expensive avenue at the detriment of our local guys who are struggling. Yes we all know the web is where it is. But how do we attract new model railroaders if they do not have a local shop to inspire them, answer questions, and sell them their first products. Seeing is believing, but I do worry that the hobby suffers through a lack of visibility.

Now let's go back to the $12.00 a car versus $22.00 a car in the FT model. Let's say a dealer is lucky enough to make 20% a car on a sale (and I can tell you that 10% if more realistic). I want you to think this, would you like to work with a customer, answer his questions via email or phone assuming this is a mail order like the majority of sales today, pull a product from inventory, take payment, take the PayPal or credit fee hit, pack the item, ship to the customer while they campaign that the shipping cost is too high and pray the product gets there okay, and if not okay, go through a return process. That is always fun. If you are lucky, you will make $2.40 on that car before payment fees for likely about an hour of work and customer service. Would you do this? At least for a $22.00 car, you may make $4.40 before fees. Think about this folks. What would you do?

I think we need to start a dealer appreciation day. Have you hugged your dealer lately?

Rob

[strummer]

Lots of valid points made here.

It seems to me that the future of Z scale will have as much to do with the health of the hobby as a whole, as to the scale itself. If we look back, it would appear that N scale came along at just the right time. Now, some 40 years on, it is where it is. Will we see the same in another 20 years regarding Z? It's hard to say, but given the over all state of the hobby, and perhaps the country as a whole, I'd say it's doubtful.

Trains just don't seem to "matter" like they used to, so the growth of the hobby in general may (continue) to "retract". If this is the case, then it seems that a relatively "new" scale like Z will have a hard time establishing itself. I hope I'm wrong, both about this scale and the hobby as a whole.

Having said all that, I must say that in my VERY limited experience with Z scale that I'm impressed with the detail of the MTL rolling stock, and perhaps the best part is that now my N scale stuff seems huge, and much easier to work on and see!   

Mark in Oregon

[PAL_Houston]

Lots of valid points made here.

It seems to me that the future of Z scale will have as much to do with the health of the hobby as a whole, as to the scale itself. If we look back, it would appear that N scale came along at just the right time. Now, some 40 years on, it is where it is. Will we see the same in another 20 years regarding Z? It's hard to say, but given the over all state of the hobby, and perhaps the country as a whole, I'd say it's doubtful.

Trains just don't seem to "matter" like they used to, so the growth of the hobby in general may (continue) to "retract". If this is the case, then it seems that a relatively "new" scale like Z will have a hard time establishing itself. I hope I'm wrong, both about this scale and the hobby as a whole.

Having said all that, I must say that in my VERY limited experience with Z scale that I'm impressed with the detail of the MTL rolling stock, and perhaps the best part is that now my N scale stuff seems huge, and much easier to work on and see!   

Mark in Oregon

So after following this thread for a few days, I was going to add a flip comment, something to the effect that it could be 22/16 larger, at 8/11 ths of the cost.  However, the comment that trains "just don't seem to "matter" like they used to" caught my attention, and is deserving of some (a bunch?) of further discussion.

Actually, trains matter just as much, or more, than they ever did.  Most of our foreign trade (either leaving or coming) travels by rail from the "heartland" to a few major ports, or from those ports back to the "heartland".  Coal, oil, consumer goods in stacks.  I think it's not that trains don't matter, it's just that railroading is a lot different now.  Mostly, it's concentrated in a few very large corporations:  BNSF, CSX, NSC, UNP.  We have unit trains:  coal, oil and container trains.  They don't have the character of the trains that I grew up knowing about.

Going forward, people are going to want to model these, but to do them justice you need a lot of space to model long, long trains.  Some people have the space at home, and can afford to do that.  Others join clubs and do modular layouts that support long trains, and we see them in shows.
But the older we get the less relevant are the old roads.  Heck, most of the folks on this board cannot actually remember anything B.C. (before ConRail)! 

So, but for the expense of the models, Z-scale actually offers people a better shot at doing justice to modern railroading....
as long as your eyesight holds out!!

[strummer]

See, that's just what I was saying...another valid point!

I guess what I mean is that, perhaps in the "collective conscience" of today's (US) society, trains have taken a back seat to other things. I can remember when trains were the advertiser's "yardstick" for things fast, sleek and modern. Sure, they are every bit as important today as ever, but I'm not sure they carry the same "romance" that they used to, at least to the "average" Joe on the street. I guess that's what I meant by saying "Trains don't seem to "matter" like they use to".

Again, I hope I'm wrong on this, but when was the last time you saw a TV add for any scale model trains? (I know it's been a while for me, 'cuz I haven't had cable since the mid '90's!)

In any case, I'll close now so the discussion can get back to what we can do about Z scale...

Mark in Oregon   

 PS: I got my MTL F7 running pretty well; the Marklin 0-6-0 has a brush melted to the commutator, so I guess it's a dead soldier...

[Denver Road Doug]

Let me know if anyone wants to buy a collection of BNSF stuff in Z...

Want to trade for a collection of BNSF stuff in N?   

I don't dispute the track situation one bit.  My Z (and lately my N to a large extent) is going to be more "caricature" modeling than fine scale.  I want to eventually create some killer super-fine-scale helicon-focus worthy layout, but as time rolls on I just don't know if I will ever have the time to do it the way I truly want to.  So for now I'm going to enjoy it in whatever way possible, the path of least resistance, etc.   My foray into Z is somewhat liberating in the fact that I really don't have some great pressure to build a magazine worthy layout....I just want to build a small layout that fits the almost zero space I have available at this time where I can run a few trains and gain the benefits of the stress relief that is running a model railroad. 

I'm serious about possible trades if you were serious about divesting your Z.   I already have a table at an upcoming show to sell off a large bit of my N....not getting out completely but definitely going to be running with a much leaner roster of equipment until such time that I can afford a space to build that monster dream pike.

[peteski]

My foray into Z is somewhat liberating in the fact that I really don't have some great pressure to build a magazine worthy layout....I just want to build a small layout that fits the almost zero space I have available at this time where I can run a few trains and gain the benefits of the stress relief that is running a model railroad. 

I think that an article about any decent Z scale layout would be eagerly accepted by model RR magazines. Even one using any of the commercially available (oversize) track.  If you think about it, there were plenty of N scale layouts featured in magazines, even with their code 70 Atlas flextrack.  Plus, there is a large hole when it comes to Z scale layout coverage (most Z scalers keep their layouts private).

[Denver Road Doug]

I think that an article about any decent Z scale layout would be eagerly accepted by model RR magazines. Even one using any of the commercially available (oversize) track.  If you think about it, there were plenty of N scale layouts featured in magazines, even with their code 70 Atlas flextrack.  Plus, there is a large hole when it comes to Z scale layout coverage (most Z scalers keep their layouts private).

You are correct.  In fact I've already been asked--by two different entities--to write an article on my layout and it hasn't even a train running on it yet.

I meant "magazine worthy" with respect to the typical meaning of a superbly done layout that is worthy of the major magazines and perhaps even on the cover.  That's kind of the typical idea behind that phrase.  But yes, unique, or unusually large, or other hooks can also place a layout into a magazine.

[ztrack]

I am one of those entities.

Guys, check out the layout thread on the AZL Forum for the 'Deal Island, Chesapeake Bay' layout. I have posted a few photos here. This has been a thread on the build of the layout. The builder is in Germany. The scenery is incredible. I have posted a few photos to give you some idea of what he is building, and if you are not familiar with Z, what can be done.  The AZL forum link is:

http://www.azlforum.com

Here are a few samples.







Rob