New brass Milwaukee Bipolar EP-2 clinic- part 2

[peteski]

Interesting . . . a drawbar instead of a coupler?

BTW, @tom mann : why isn't this a Best Of thread?

[sd45elect2000]

I know this thread has been done for a while, but a new photo came my way last night.

My friend in Japan, named Ryoichi Fukushima, was at a train show this week in Japan.

And he said he found one of the stock Kumata 2000 black EP-2s on display.

He excitedly took several photos and sent them to me.

So I wanted to post these with this thread.  They are the only known photos I've ever seen of the black units. (and trust me, I've spent hours and hours searching the web).

Remember, there are only about 15 of these out there.  And we don't know of any that have left Japan.
Ryoichi has been looking for one of these for me for well over a year.
He knew a guy who had two, but he sold them... so no photos.

So thanks again Ryoichi.
Much appreciated.

I actually think I can manage this paint scheme.

[u18b]

Man, those things are designed high-boyish.

It's amazing what a difference it made lowering them and adding underframes.

[u18b]

Here is a new development that I'm excited about.

One of the great things about the 2000 version of the KMT brass EP-2 is the addition of sand boxes on the nose.
The old NJ model did not have them.  And unless you model these as brand new- just delivered.... you NEED sandboxes.



Well, not all of my new models have sand boxes.   About 1/3 of the 50 unit run did not have them because KMT was modeling the EP-2 at the Chicago Railroad Fair in 1948.  The RR removed the boxes for that exposition in order to reduce weight.

Here is Kumata's stock painted model....


And here's my Railroad Fair model....


But except for delivery year of about 1919... they always had sand boxes until streamlined late in life.



So the model I'm working on right now needs those boxes (they will cover the grab iron holes).


Well.... Aaron Bearden ( @chessie system fan  )  to the rescue.    He designed some 3-D sand boxes for me.





There are mirror images with a left and right.  It has to do with the position of the grabiron and the class light.




He even put a starter hole for drilling the grabirons.



If you have an old NJ EP-2.... you might want to contact Aaron and see if he will sell you some.

They look great.  Now I just need to paint them and install them.

[u18b]

Well, I’ve finally completed the next EP-2.  (this is the fourth).

I built E-1 with 4 bulb headlight.   



Glad to have it done.   I took a lot more photos this time.







































I love the GE build plate.  You can almost read the writing.
















Here is a video with some of the same photos.

On to the next one.

[peteski]

I'm again out of superlatives.  Ron, you have done it again!

I don't recall if I asked this in the past, but with all the packaging and documentation, are these models for sale, or did you do this for your enjoyment?

Also, I might have missed this, but where did the decals came from?

[u18b]

I'm again out of superlatives.  Ron, you have done it again!

I don't recall if I asked this in the past, but with all the packaging and documentation, are these models for sale, or did you do this for your enjoyment?

sort of both.  Selling, but obviously REALLY slow.  And I'll keep or or two for me.

Also, I might have missed this, but where did the decals came from?

You!
@peteski

(I've about used up my stash.  Hope you still have the file!)

[peteski]

sort of both.  Selling, but obviously REALLY slow.  And I'll keep or or two for me.

You!
@peteski

(I've about used up my stash.  Hope you still have the file!)

LOL, I guess I'm getting old because I'm having more and more "senior moments". 

I remembered that decal project quite well (including you designing the font), but for some reason I thought that I only made lettering with purplish fill. I didn't remember making gold-filled letters.
Yes, I still have the files, and my Alps printer.  I also now have a wider range of color ink ribbons, so I could likely get the purple to look better (as a solid color, without the dotted halftoning artifacts.

[u18b]

I’m going to resume this thread because I’m facing new challenges that need to be documented.

Now that the previous  EP-2 is delivered, it’s time to turn my attention to the next one.

Here is my target.   The year is 1947 and the railroad is instituting new Olympian Hiawatha service.    Gone will be the old black EP-2s.  Time for color!

Here is a model made in HO by OMI.  This is the scheme.



So the first Hiawatha EP-2 was painted in a new scheme and was the only one. Therefore, I call this the Experimental Scheme.    This scheme appeared on E-1 only.

There are lots of things that make this modeling project hard.

The first is that it is obviously a hard and complex paint scheme.   Much thought will have to be given as to exactly how this can be pulled off in N scale.

Second- there is paltry information on the net!  To date, after untold hours of research, I have only been able to find FOUR photos of this loco.  I have posted on other forums for help and no one has produced anything extra- even though people tried to help.   So lack of info is a problem if you want to be accurate.

In fact, not only is there little info…. But when that happens, you start getting wrong info (since people are probably just doing their best).

So here are the only four photos I can find.

First, this shot from Noel Holley's great book is almost useless.  I can see from the nose that this is the correct scheme- but you can’t see anything.  All I know is that the Experimental Scheme pulled the Ski train to Snowqualmie.




This next shot is a little helpful.  It is the only color shot, and that helps.  But it is VERY fuzzy.  It came from a book and someone send me a better scan- but still fuzzy.




The next is a pretty famous photo.   This is about the only shot you can easily see on the net.  And it is very clear.  Very helpful.



And I recently came across this image which was a bit helpful for research purposes.
For example, this shot shows that the grab irons are black- something I might have missed.




Now, I know, these are better than nothing.  But notice that the three usable shots are ALL of the right side.  I have zero shots of the left side.

One of the things that drives me crazy is the lack of a visible horn.   The old steam whistle is clearly gone.   But I cannot see a horn- and I know at least one has to be there.

So…. If you find a shot of this loco, please let me know.


Then there is artwork.   This one is not bad.


On this one, the nose is wrong.



Besides, art is not photos.

[peteski]

Ron, I get this extreme quest for accuracy, but if so little photographic (or any other) evidence of the livery exists, exactly who out there is to call you out that you got something wrong?  And what proof will they have?   Even if someone who lived in that time period is still alive, would their memory be clear enough to recall some minute details not visible in the photos you found?

It seems to me that your worries are unfounded. Just use the documentation you found, and paint that darn model!  As for that horn, either place it on the "dark side" of the model, or just pretend it is hidden behind some grille.  I'm half joking, but half serious.  And yes, I realize that you are doing all this for your own satisfaction, but sometimes we can get a bit too obsessive. 

[chessie system fan]

I'll have to double check for sure, but I feel like maroon would be a period consistent grab iron color.  I'm not sure if black was.

[Sokramiketes]

I'll have to double check for sure, but I feel like maroon would be a period consistent grab iron color.  I'm not sure if black was.

Black is correct for the era. 

Ron, is this one spoken for yet?  This is the one I'd be interested in!  It would be visiting the Milwaukee Shops in my era, so not under catenary. 

[u18b]

Ron, I get this extreme quest for accuracy, but if so little photographic (or any other) evidence of the livery exists, exactly who out there is to call you out that you got something wrong?  And what proof will they have?   Even if someone who lived in that time period is still alive, would their memory be clear enough to recall some minute details not visible in the photos you found?

It seems to me that your worries are unfounded. Just use the documentation you found, and paint that darn model!  As for that horn, either place it on the "dark side" of the model, or just pretend it is hidden behind some grille.  I'm half joking, but half serious.  And yes, I realize that you are doing all this for your own satisfaction, but sometimes we can get a bit too obsessive. 

Pete.  I'm glad you brought this up.  But I'm thinking you might be making a few unwarranted assumptions.

For example, am I paralyzed - unable to work on this model until I get more info?

If that were the case, then your statement is true- for all of us.  There are many times when modeling something old and/or rare that we encounter lack of info.  It is indeed possible to be paralyzed- stopping us from building.

In my case, I would say:

1.  I'm Ron Bearden (what can I say?)      I am obsessive.  I would hate it if more info comes out later and I did something wrong.   I wouldn't be able to change it.   It won't ruin my life, but I would still hate it.  Sadly (for my obsession and quest for accuracy) this has already happened.  The first EP-2 I built has both horns and steam whistles.  The problem is that at the time, I did not realize that hump on the hood roof was covering the steam whistle.  And I did not remove it.    It was on the second build that new info and conclusions came to life.   So number 1 has a slight error.  I hate it, but cannot change it.

2.  The community can be a big help.   I hit a snag in research on this one and asked the community to help (multiple times).  Maybe one more helpful photo will show up.

3.  My research on these EP-2s dates back years.   I search the internet several times a year for photo's of EP-2.  I've saved every possible one on my computer.  And Aaron helps.  Once in a while he sends me photos.  Most of the time, I already have it, but once in a while it is new for me.   

So I'm not a Milwaukee expert at all.  But I've gained a certain level of expertise when it comes to this locomotive.  Hours and hours of research.
And I'm still learning.

4.  I'm planning way in advance.  I'll be building 8-9 total (maybe 10 or 11) of these EP-2s.  I've built 4 and I have all of the rest planned out.   My personal goal was that no two would be alike.  Whoever ends up with one will get a one of a kind loco.  Thus, I have known that #5 was going to be the experimental scheme for a couple of years.  Thus I've been researching this scheme for years.... and now I'm finally ready to build it.

So you are correct, the moment is almost upon me to commit even if there might be a new photo that shows up in the future which shows I made an error.
So I'm about ready to commit.  In fact, I've already started.  I chose a spot for the horn that seems likely.  And that leads me to #5.

5.  Remember, the way I write and post.   Many people post the final results- and that's great.   But I often post the thought processes that go into modeling.   I hope that this might help some people.   And that is the case here.   I'm posting what I see, what I lack, and the judgments I'll be making and why.  So while I'm talking about that horn now, in reality I've already mounted one.   But I'm walking everyone thru my thought process.

My style of writing is not for everyone.  As @Ed Kapuscinski  joked one time on the Shay, I've shown every detail down to every single screw in the thing!

So I'm often ahead of where I post.   In the Shay thread, when I got the new version 1 from Chris, I posted page after page of the work.  But in reality, I was about finished when I posted.  So when I posted, I was posting work that I had done weeks before.

That's not quite the case here with this EP-2, but I am indeed a little ahead.    I'm just slowly walking the thread thru what I've done in a thorough manner.

And besides, I'm an  .  What can I say?

[u18b]

Black is correct for the era. 

Ron, is this one spoken for yet?  This is the one I'd be interested in!  It would be visiting the Milwaukee Shops in my era, so not under catenary.

Mike, sadly, they are all spoken for and there is a waiting list.   So there is very little chance that one will become available.  And besides, as I said in my answer to Pete, this will be the only one in this scheme because this is the only prototype, and there are no variations.

[u18b]

Paint Schemes   

Since we are on the subject of research, let me post on EP-2 paint schemes.
There may be a website that covers this in the detail I have employed- but I have not seen it.
So maybe this will be helpful- even to seasoned Milwaukee Road fans.

The EP-2 appeared in two broad groups:  Black and Colored.

The EP-2 wore basic black with a few variations for ~30 years (1919-1948).  Black pulled the Olympian. 
Color was added  with the Olympian Hiawatha (1948-about 1960).


Black 1.   As-Delivered Scheme

Basic black.  White letters and road number only.



Black 2.    Cast Herald

At some point, they added a cast bronze box herald at the bottom of the boiler section while retaining the original white letters.
This photo is from 1924.




Black 3.   Red box Herald

At some point, old CM&StP lettering was removed as well as the cast herald.
This was done when the boiler room door and ladder was removed and filled in (though there is one exception where the cast herald appears with a filled in door).  Presumably, the loco got a fresh coat of black paint.

A new large red box herald was added.






Black 4.   World’s Fair Scheme

In 1933, 10250 was displayed with extensive silver accents for display at the World’s Fair.




There were five schemes with color.
When Milw Rd introduced new passenger cars and a new image, they went with color.

Experimental scheme  Stripe/Slant. 

Only on E1, 1948. This loco lasted in this scheme until about Cigar scheme.  Very few photos seem to exist of this locomotive in this scheme (not sure why). 




Railroad Fair Scheme: Six Stripe

Also in 1948, for publicity, the RR loaned E-3 to the 1948-49 Chicago Railroad Fair.  Thus this scheme is named after that event.

The scheme has six silver stripes on the noses.  Only #E-3 is painted this way.  The sand boxes were removed for the Railroad Fair and were added back when the unit was placed back in service.

Note: cabs and boiler room have gray.




Railroad Fair Scheme: Five Stripe. 
E-2,4,5 wore this scheme with 5 silver stripes from about 1949 - 1952.    The silver strips come up to the edge of the sand boxes on the nose.  I have seen no photos of E1 in this scheme.


There were two variations:

Gray Variation
E-4 and E-5 wore gray cab and boiler room roofs (just like E3).




Black Variation
 E-2 seems to be the only one which wore a black cab and also had  red pantographs.




Early Cigar Scheme.

~1952 – 1953.  Note the railroad herald is spelled out.  All five units wore this scheme.





Late Cigar Scheme.
 ~ late 1952 - early 1953. 

Has no spelled out herald.  Instead, it carries the Milwaukee Road box herald.  E-2 and E-3 may be the only units in this scheme before the streamlining rebuild of 1953.




 Once rebuilt and streamlined in 1953, all 5 appeared in this scheme.




UP yellow scheme. 
~1954 – 1960.  Eventually, all five were painted in a Union Pacific scheme.