Bad Amtrak wreck in Philadelpha

[Scottl]

It is all evidence, easily obtained, and as often is the case, difficult to verify by a "journalist".  Facebook, forums, even Twitter are public sources of information.

As I said above, I don't think anything in the article was particularly important or problematic.  The cause of this accident will emerge. 

I think it is highly prejudicial to release any investigation information prior to the report.  When did the play by play release of investigations start to happen?  The Europeans and Canada do it too. It feeds the media circus as much as anything.

[Rich_S]

I don't take it that way at all.  It seems pretty balanced for that sort of thing.

After German Wings however, the nature of these investigations will never be the same.

Scott, For me it's the choice of words. Why did they use the word "obsessed" instead of saying he had an interest in trains? I can also tell you from personal experience working in the railroad industry, "Foamer" is not used as an endearing term, it is meant to be an insult.  Unless they can prove without a shadow of a doubt it was a mechanical problem, it looks like this engineer might go to jail over this incident. 

Separately, the Philadelphia district attorney's office said it was investigating and will decide whether to bring charges

 

That is something else that exists in the railroad industry today, accidents just don't happen, someone has to be held responsible. No such thing anymore as "An Act of God" Another article already mentioned the tracks have been ruled out as a cause.

[Scottl]

I hear you, and I am doing my best to avoid making a judgement until the evidence is in.  A train doing double the speed limit is not an Act of God, it is clearly some kind of failure but we don't have an objective set of data to understand the full range of possible explanations.  I just wish the NSTB and sister agencies around the world would just stay quiet, do their job, and let the media frenzy die off sooner.  We are all served better by cold reasoning and analysis without the limelight.

[Rich_S]

I just wish the NSTB and sister agencies around the world would just stay quiet, do their job, and let the media frenzy die off sooner.  We are all served better by cold reasoning and analysis without the limelight.

I agree 100%, lets get all of the info before we point fingers.   

[peteski]

  I just wish the NSTB and sister agencies around the world would just stay quiet, do their job, and let the media frenzy die off sooner.  We are all served better by cold reasoning and analysis without the limelight.

Again, media and public nowadays demand instant information.  If media could, they would have a continuous feed of the investigation process.  Gone are the days where news was only reported in the next day's paper or on the 6 o'clock news on one of the major TV networks.  We want to be fed live info as newsworthy events happen.

[Smike]

That is something else that exists in the railroad industry today, accidents just don't happen, someone has to be held responsible. No such thing anymore as "An Act of God" Another article already mentioned the tracks have been ruled out as a cause.

Lessons learned and technology keep evolving to minimize the chances of an actual “act of God” event resulting into an accident.   Rock fences to help prevent natural slides into the ROW, sensors to detect flooding, weather radar to track Severe weather.  None of these completely eliminated the Act of god, but it has been greatly reduced as a cause. 

I guarantee that the cause is not the result of any single action by any one individual.  Even if this ends up being blamed on the engineer, its not 100% the fault of a single person.  Part of the blame would be on something as basic as the decision to not re-align the track to remove or reduce a dangerous curve.  (Certainly technically possible to mitigate that danger outside of costs) The media world wants a simple reason (makes for easy to write headlines) but with such a highly regulated industry like this, its never that simple. Aside from feeling compassion for those that lost their lives or injured, I feel for the engineer getting grilled by the court of public opinion, unless they prove he was trying to go the way of the German wings pilot. 

[Rich_S]

Lessons learned and technology keep evolving to minimize the chances of an actual “act of God” event resulting into an accident.   Rock fences to help prevent natural slides into the ROW, sensors to detect flooding, weather radar to track Severe weather.  None of these completely eliminated the Act of god, but it has been greatly reduced as a cause. 

I guarantee that the cause is not the result of any single action by any one individual.  Even if this ends up being blamed on the engineer, its not 100% the fault of a single person.  Part of the blame would be on something as basic as the decision to not re-align the track to remove or reduce a dangerous curve.  (Certainly technically possible to mitigate that danger outside of costs) The media world wants a simple reason (makes for easy to write headlines) but with such a highly regulated industry like this, its never that simple. Aside from feeling compassion for those that lost their lives or injured, I feel for the engineer getting grilled by the court of public opinion, unless they prove he was trying to go the way of the German wings pilot.

Mike, You're missing the real point. It's not going to be Amtraks fault, it's going to be the engineers fault and he might do jail time for a simple mistake. Imagine if you went to work today and make a mistake and because of that mistake you were jailed. I feel for the families of the people who lost their lives on that train, but I also know what goes on, on the inside and it's never the railroads fault, it's always the employees fault. If something were found wrong with the track, they'd find someone on the MOW department to hang, if something is found wrong with the locomotive, they'll find somebody on the mechanical side to hang, I've seen it way too many times.

[Smike]

I do agree with you that the RR’s will try to absolve themselves of fault whenever possible.  You know the 'politics" better than I do, I’m just looking at it from the true root cause (politics aside) and in reality no single person is every truly 100% to blame for an accident like this even if he made a mistake or it was deliberate in their part.  That is the part I sympathize  with the engineer. 

Critical thinking in the case of the German wings incident, the decision to allow a single person to prevent access to the cockpit, ultimately was the part of the cause for the plane crash.  The pilot bears the most weight for his deliberate action, but to mandate a control that gives a single person the ability to remove critical redundancy (two pilots in the cockpit during an emergency whether that emergency was self-created or other) bears part of that responsibility (and not an insignificant one either IMHO)

[up1950s]

As much as I dislike the media pushiness ,they do good too . Ignition switches , over charged air bags , CTC , Blue dress , love canal , etc . You can't rely on the Fed , State , Corp , or Joe and Jane Blow or Doe to supply the whole story . I want the mix of truth , half truth , lie , and speculation as it happens . I find it interesting and it shakes the bushes for people to come forward .

[davefoxx]

Regarding the statements that the railroads try to pin the blame solely elsewhere and absolve themselves, the CEO of Amtrak stated that the railroad takes full responsibility for the accident:

http://6abc.com/news/amtrak-ceo-railroad-takes-full-responsibility-for-crash/718111/

DFF

[Rich_S]

Regarding the statements that the railroads try to pin the blame solely elsewhere and absolve themselves, the CEO of Amtrak stated that the railroad takes full responsibility for the accident:

http://6abc.com/news/amtrak-ceo-railroad-takes-full-responsibility-for-crash/718111/

DFF

Dave, Do you really believe that? So if the engineer says "I don't remember what happened" Amtrak is going to say OK and put his name back on the call roster. If Amtrak is taking full responsibility, why is Philadelphia considering charging the engineer and not charging Amtrak? I read the Amtrak statement as Public Relations speak, how many people do you think right now are debating their ridership on Amtrak? Let me ask you this simple question, if the engineer felt safe in his position why did he get a lawyer? Here is a guy that grew up with an interest in trains and instead of going straight to his employer to fill out an accident report, he contacted his lawyer for advice. Makes you wonder why, just saying.   

[PJPickard]

This is the first report I have seen in the news about the idea the train was hit by an object, Tom mentioned it above.

http://www.chron.com/news/us/article/The-Latest-on-Amtrak-crash-Last-2-mangled-cars-6265515.php

[Smike]

The FBI has been called in. One of the conductors on the train overheard on the radio the engineer saying the train was hit just prior to the crash.

Looks like the Septa train that when into emergency due to something hitting the windsheild just prior to this crash in the same area was not a dead lead.

http://www.cnn.com/2015/05/15/us/philadelphia-amtrak-train-derailment/index.html

Edited as now it is reported that a 3rd train was struck (just prior to the septa train)

"Amtrak's Acela 2173 was traveling southbound when it was hit on the left side between 9:05 and 9:10 p.m., about five minutes before it entered 30th Street Station, according to 29-year-old passenger Madison Calvert.
Read more at http://www.philly.com/philly/news/20150514_SEPTA_train_hit_by_projectile_before_Amtrak_crash.html#C1OKsexLTtfUWOrm.99"

So two trains prior to the crash in the same area struck, and now the reports that train 188 might have been hit as well.

[Smike]

About the closet shot of the front I could find:

intresting that the wipers on either window are in still in the correct position,  may indicate damage was not from the training plowing off of the tracks. 

[Hyperion]

If Amtrak is taking full responsibility, why is Philadelphia considering charging the engineer and not charging Amtrak?

Um, because criminal law doesn't work that way?

If you kill someone, even if by accident, someone else can't go "Oh, it's alright, it was my bad.  Charge me instead.".  Even the victims (if alive) or their family don't have a say in the matter of whether a person is charged or not (though they sometimes can make a plea for leniency).

Violating the law, is violating the law.  If the State of Pennsylvania thinks they have enough to charge the man for something (and of course they have to say they're "considering" it -- it's blatantly obvious that it's POSSIBLE that the man committed a criminal act, it would be irresponsible for them to not at least 'consider' it), it doesn't matter one bit whatever Amtrak's position might be as to his fault.  Criminal culpability is not determined by your employer, it's determined by a prosecutor (though he'd have a tough case if Amtrak could provide evidence he was in no way at fault).  Amtrak doesn't get to say "You can't charge my employees for their purported negligence because we don't think they did it."  The best they can do is, if the guy ends up being charged (which wouldn't be until there's sufficient evidence that he played a role), is provide evidence to the contrary.

Also, "taking full responsbility" is not the same as "absolving all others of liability".  If an employee of mine screws up, I might tell my boss that "I take full responsibility for his screw-up" -- in fact, depending on exactly what happened that would likely be an appropriate thing to say.  But that doesn't negate the fact that it was really him that screwed up nor does it mean he's going to remain totally unscathed in the aftermath.  Me saying that doesn't mean my boss isn't going to fire the guy, and Amtrak saying it doesn't mean that they don't think the guy played a role and it certainly doesn't mean that the State may not charge the guy.