Bad Amtrak wreck in Philadelpha

[lajmdlr]

Still a whole lot of WAG-ing going on. The big problem w/ this it's not doing anybody any good. Nobody will ever know the real facts until the NTSB's final report is released!

[davefoxx]

My theory: New engineer, on a new route at night, does not yet have the "feel" of where his train is just by the ride, debating about trying a little faster than 50 through the curve, like other guys have. Not for thrills, just to shave some time off the run. Rock hits windshield, startling him, maybe even panic, not knowing if it was something lethal. He realizes it was just a rock, but has lost track of time for a while. Mistakenly believes he's gone through the curve while he was distracted, and since the speed limit beyond is 110 he pushes up the throttle. Suddenly realizes he's AT the curve, and hits the brakes but ...
AS for loss of memory, yes, quite possible after a head injury. It happened to me. I was riding my bike a clear sunny day one minute, the next I was in an ambulance with a guy asking me if I could remember my name. Absolutely no memory of what happened in between.
But as for the statement that he found his bag in the mess of the cab, took it with him out of the loco, dug out his cell phone and called 911 -- that requires a high level of cognizance and deliberate thought to do, and that's not possible after a jolting wreck. That also happened to me: an unexpected high-speed head-on collision on a lonely country road in the dark. Even though I never lost consciousness, I had a hard time grasping what had just happened and what I should do next for quite a while. Not until they brought me to the hospital. And I didn't even have any serious injuries. A violent wreck not only shakes up your perceptions it physically shakes up your brain. Your sense of time is completely out of whack. Maybe he did what he did, but I would bet that was minutes after the emergency vehicles and personnel were already there.

I'm not sure why everyone must continue to advertise their personal theories, which are not based on the actual facts and information, much of which has not been made public yet.  OldEastRR, I have no reason to doubt the veracity of your experiences (and I'm sorry to hear of your misfortune), but I fail to see the relevance to the Amtrak crash.  Everyone reacts differently.  Speculation does no good, and there are plenty of ignorant people that take what they read on the internet as fact and truth.  Let's leave it to the NTSB to issue their report.  Please.

However, if I was his defense attorney, my advice would be for him to claim memory loss. It's a plausible possibility that can't be either conclusively proved or disproved.

As a member of the Bar in good standing, I'm glad that you are not.  This recommendation is not only unethical, but it's this type of representation that gives lawyers a bad name.  We are forbidden from allowing our clients to knowingly make misrepresentations while under oath.  In other words, if I know my client is lying, I cannot allow that testimony to be offered, and, if already offered, I am required to advise my client to correct the misrepresentation.  Attorneys have been forced to request that their appearance be stricken when a client refuses to correct the testimony.

DFF

[victor miranda]

Still a whole lot of WAG-ing going on. The big problem w/ this it's not doing anybody any good. Nobody will ever know the real facts until the NTSB's final report is released!

I can understand that you might not like this reason.
it is, however, a reason.

Some people like to guess.

I do a lot of guessing and frankly I do not like the conclusions
that well thought out guesses bring, in this case.

the problem is that this appears to be a human error and there is no real fix.

Believe me I want NTSB to identify a fault in the motor control circuit.
or darned near any mechanical fault.
we can FIX that.

so SWAGs will keep rolling.
the NTSB will stop our guessing.

victor

[eric220]

However, if I was his defense attorney, my advice would be for him to claim memory loss. It's a plausible possibility that can't be either conclusively proved or disproved.

Remind me not to use you for legal advice. In addition to what DFF said, this is actually the worst thing he could do at this point. If he really did screw up and doesn't want to give a statement, since people died and he might face criminal charges, he is protected against making self-incriminating statements. Far better to plead the fifth than risk being caught lying about a concussion. Additionally, if there was an honest mistake somewhere, there's really no benefit to not giving a statement. If he knows that it's his fault, then he knows that the investigation will eventually conclude that the cause was operator error. It would better for the investigators and public to know what was going on in his mind than be left guessing or just slapping a catch-all "negligence" label on it.

[Dave V]

Still a whole lot of WAG-ing going on. The big problem w/ this it's not doing anybody any good. Nobody will ever know the real facts until the NTSB's final report is released!

This.

[Rich_S]

Would like to know if some engineers on that route found they could take Frankfort Curve at faster than the posted limit with no problems.
My theory: New engineer, on a new route at night, does not yet have the "feel" of where his train is just by the ride, debating about trying a little faster than 50 through the curve, like other guys have. Not for thrills, just to shave some time off the run.

Guys, this is not the days of Casey Jones, speeding will get you time on the street without pay. Caught speeding too many times and you'll be looking for a new way to support your family. Locomotives are equipped with event recorders (little black boxes that are actually orange) that record time, speed, throttle position, brake pipe, brake cylinder. If a road foreman thinks you are speeding, he can download the event recorder. Road foreman also have radar guns and regularly check train speeds. If you are running late, there is no incentive to speed, but a lot to loose if caught speeding. For the railroad that I work for, the basic rule is you must be within 3 mph of the speed limit without exceeding the speed limit. Now there are exceptions, you're not going to take a loaded iron ore train up a two percent grade and stay within 3 mph of the speed limit.  Last point, engineers have to test on their divisions, you don't just qualify and they turn you loose, the road foreman has to sign off that you can operate a train over the division.  In closing, I agree with what others have said, we need to wait for the NTSB on the cause of the accident.   

[Bob Bufkin]

Have read that Amtrak is now going to install cab cameras in all their locomotives because of this wreck.

[Ed Kapuscinski]

I love it: cameras so they know who to blame for accidents, but not a second crewman to prevent them.

[Rich_S]

Have read that Amtrak is now going to install cab cameras in all their locomotives because of this wreck.

They wouldn't be the first, from my understanding KCS has already installed inward facing camera's on some of their locomotives.

[Bob Bufkin]

CSX has some also.  Personally I think this is too much like big brother watching.

[Philip H]

CSX has some also.  Personally I think this is too much like big brother watching.

Agreed. More cameras doesn't make anyone safer. That train whose brakes let go after the engine fire in Canada that obliterated a town would not have been stopped by more cameras. Larger crews who are less fatigued because they can stare work . . .

Lets let the ntsb decide what should be done. It is their job, after all.

[John]

Agreed. More cameras doesn't make anyone safer. T

can sure help figure out what happened though ..

[up1950s]

I would add FLIR camera and display . To that I would a behind and above the head of the engineer to record the displays and the engineer reaction to them . Then replace the seat with a toilet . Or operate the train as a drone and when it is hacked tell the press that they were told the system is safe .

[OldEastRR]

First determinations are in: engineer was concentrating on listening to the radio chatter about the rock thrown at the other train, lost track of "situational awareness". I figured that something physical or mental must have distracted him and made him lose track of where his train was (he'd only been on the run for 2 weeks). Nobody who knows what's going on would jack a train deliberately to 100 mph in a 50 zone.

http://www.cbsnews.com/videos/engineer-in-fatal-philly-amtrak-crash-was-distracted-by-radio/

[nscaler711]

I totally get that, I work security, and you can, and will get distracted by radio chatter, especially during an event like an emergency.
Same goes if you have a scanner and their is a lot of activity on PDs side... You will get distracted...
And the general population wont understand his situation as they have never been put in that or a similar situation where they have alot of activity on their primary source for communication.... Unless they are one of those texting while driving types...