Seeking help sourcing 20" or 24" N scale metal wheels

[SandyEggoJake]

Hello all.  (My first post here, so please for give if this in not in order or right spot.)

I'm seeking a solution for metal wheels for a fleet of tie trams I'm building for my AT&SF National City tie processing plant (circa 1927).   Assuming a standard 7x9" tie, I've been able to work out the diameter is ~20, but I think 20 to 24" (3.2 - 3.8mm) will work for my needs.  Also note these are not "wheelsets" - more akin to half axles or stub axles with a journal front and back of each individual wheel.

Pictured here empty: http://www.kansasmemory.org/item/50480/page/1
and loaded:  http://www.kansasmemory.org/item/50483/page/1

I would have thought there would already be an active thread on such here, but after searching for mine cart wheels, etc, have yet to find a tread for my type/dim in 1/160.

Elsewhere, I've looked at the usual places and some more obscure.  My first thought was going with a Z gauge 33" wheel that equates to 24".  But the offerings from FoxValley for example are already pressed on axle and uses an insulated wheel on one side, so I suspect it is not an ideal / cost effective solution for my needs.  Plus I'm concerned about how narrow Z gauge wheels with smaller flanges will track with these rather short, light carts in the extremely switch heavy yard in which these trams will operate. 

NWSL is willing to turn some 24" for me, but only if I buy say 600 for them to develop the tooling the setup they need.  But so far they seem unwilling to make the stub axles.  If I go with a 1 mm bore (rather huge for this wheel), I could use rod stock or 2mm.org has several options for loose 1mm pin point axles I could modify. 

Sure, I could have a friend turn some, but I'll need ~125-150 and that's a lot to ask.

Any alternative thoughts?

[GN Fan]

N Scale Architect (http://thenarch.com/) has some Mine Carts and Critter Locomotive & Lumber Bogies that might be a starting point.  I believe that their wheels do not turn, so it might not be what you want.  Just an idea.
Tom

[SandyEggoJake]

Thx Tom!  Both worthy ideas. 

Unclear if these would work here.  The description states "static models" and also that it "runs on MTRAK Nn30".  So my guess is it is a white metal casting without free wheels, which the axles gauged to fit the narrow track Nn30.  Such would not seem a solution for my operating carts.   If going the scavenger route, and assuming we are wrong and they are in fact free spinning wheels, their Critter Locomotive & Lumber Bogies might be the better option (24 wheels  per unit vs the 12 wheels the mining cart unit get you). 

To be clearer, I'm looking for a milled metal wheels to affix to an axle or already pressed on an axle.  The end use must be free spinning.  And for this use, we seek a simple face (not spoked).  On a prior occasion, when seeking a few spoke wheels for a static model, I've used white metal parts (in that case, loose dual Medium Duty Cast Wheels for Model Train Showcase Miniatures) on which we turned a new flange profile (keeping the spoke & hub detail).  Such worked then as I only needed four.  But our material cost alone for our results was over $3.00 per wheel!   In part as we had a high failure rate in the turning as they seemed poor white metal castings (our guess was these were an old lead containing casting) and the resulting wheels would have just been too soft for the operations we need here. 

Here (as I do not want spoke detail) if I'm going to use a lathe on the wheels all, it would be more cost and time effective  just make the whole wheel out of suitable stock. 

[bbussey]

Why not just buy the Z scale FVM wheels and some N scale FVM wheels, and use an NWSL Puller to put the smaller wheels on the longer axles?

[victor miranda]

If you have a friend with a metal lathe,
I suggest you make a deal with him...

one of the things you may want to do is make about 4 of them
and give your idea a trial.

sure is interesting.

one thing I thought when I saw the project
was to make the wheels without axles
and attach/press the axles to the tram chassis
let the wheels ride loose that way is easier to assemble than trying
to make a snap fit or something to hold the axle.

victor


man this seems familiar....

[rrjim1]

I owned a small CNC shop that made HO slot car parts, retired and sold the business. Making those small brass wheels would be a piece of cake, he could also do the axles and a plastic bushing. If you decide to go that route let me know and I can give you his contact information. 

[SandyEggoJake]

Thx Bryan:

My somewhat naive concern (am an HO guy still learning the N gauge realities) is the Z scale 33" wheels, while having the correct diameter and profile, may not have an optimal tread width or flange depth to reliable track on my yard built with off the shelf switches without picking points, etc.  (I guess I could try to re build using code 55 and make an attempt to tighten up the tolerance, but that just as might might things worse.)  This tram fleet  will have well over 100 wheels rolling over dozens of multiple potential nodes of failure. 

I do think making a test of FVM Z scale could be worth it - if I had a cart RTR.  But I was kind of hoping to source the wheels before finalizing the CAD design for the carts (as the wheel dimension will change the design for the journals).  Not entirely sure for this one if I will 3D print , resin cast or PE.  Resin will be very tough if not impossible given its structure.  And that will be a hell of a lot of 3D printing and then the finishing.   So with these all metal trams, kind of thinking PE may yield the best finish (best rivet detail) / strongest results - even if it would be more assembly time, and I will need to be mindful to segregate currents, it will require much less sanding off less than optimal 3DP tracelines.   

Again, this build doesn't require "wheelset", but I would ideally like N scale "half axles", but do expect to be pressing them on myself.   So of course, with the FVM option, I would need to rebuild them with new axles, and suspect the insulated wheel on each set is less than ideal for these needs.  (Last week I sent FVM a note asking if they would consider selling me bulk uninstalled noninsulated wheels, but as yet I've gotten no reply.  If so, it would be worth making the test.) 

[SandyEggoJake]

Thanks Victor. 

But before going down that road, I'm hoping to exhaust off the shelf options.  I find it hard to believe there is no good 20 or 24" wheel with a N gauge width and flange.

Plus my friend with the lathe already has a backlog of other one off runs on my wish list!  As we live only a few miles from where they make the Sherline, he keeps telling me I need to buy my own with the CNC addon he doesn't own.  (Hmmm 15-30 more locos?  One Lathe hmmmm.)

But I agree if we lathe, free running wheels on a fixed axle may allow an easy assembly.  Would just pass a length of axle rod through open journals and the wheel bore, then perhaps press on hubs, or instead of a hub, crimp a dimple into the axles ends so they deform for a friction fit with the brass journals. (I'm guessing brass might be option for such axles, for a metal soft enough to take the end dimples at both ends, without bending?)  Or perhaps then solder a brass plate over both sides of a PE brass journal box without dimpling the axle and let both run free?  Many options open if we lathe ....

For if running the lathe, it might be just as easy to cut the wheel/stub axle as a single part, perhaps with pin points on both sides?  For turning of the wheels, such might be even easier given an axle allows for something to be held in the lathe headstock.  Assembly might be more of a challenge.  But if using PE brass for the structure including the journal/ supports, such wheels could be installed in pre tinned parts prior with a final soldering to define the structure and their capture.



     

[SandyEggoJake]

Thx rrjim1.

I agree it is a relatively simple lathe task, but one with fairly tight tolerance.  And at this number of wheels, definitely one for a CNC rather than freehand.  If you think the current owner may have capability and interest for a smaller lot run of say 150 or the 20", please PM to me his contact info and I will reach out to him if we can't find an off the shelf source.   Otherwise, it might be best for the hobby to place the order of 24" w/o axel with NWSL so they can add such capability to his existing product line ... and then we all have a place to get them off the shelf in the future.  Heck, even if I didn't need these trams, I'd buy a dozen or two smaller scale wheels for the inevitable speeder or mine cart project ... or even just to add to the wheel pile in my yard's static storage.   

[bbussey]

Thx Bryan:

My somewhat naive concern (am an HO guy still learning the N gauge realities) is the Z scale 33" wheels, while having the correct diameter and profile, may not have an optimal tread width or flange depth to reliable track on my yard built with off the shelf switches without picking points, etc.  (I guess I could try to re build using code 55 and make an attempt to tighten up the tolerance, but that just as might might things worse.)  This tram fleet  will have well over 100 wheels rolling over dozens of multiple potential nodes of failure.  ...

That's easy enough to check beforehand, by comparing an FVM "Z" wheel to an FVM "N" wheel.  Or, you could shoot an email to FVM and they will be happy to confirm the flange depths for you.

[peteski]

I find it hard to believe there is no good 20 or 24" wheel with a N gauge width and flange.

This shows your H0 background. 
While N scale is 2nd most popular after H0, even now (with the largest selection of N scale products available now than ever before), the number of products available in N scale still pales in comparison to H0.  This is especially true for the more esoteric items, such as the wheels you are seeking.  No 20 or 24" wheels?  I don't find that especially surprising. Even the recent availability of 28" or 36" wheels is a fairly recent development.   For years all we had was 33" wheels.

[rrjim1]

PM sent!

[SandyEggoJake]

Peteski,

Don't I know it!  I'm still looking for an N gauge steamers that actually produce steam!   I'll settle for a source of sprues of quality Murphy car ends and roof, as well as MTL like die cast under frames without having to pay RTR prices (or sacrificing 2nd hand MTL cars -which is pretty much what I do now). 

(Honestly, I'm very impressed at the detailing and technology of N gauge of today, which is why I made the switch when I got back into the hobby.)   

[Chris333]

You can buy just about any MTL part from an MTL dealer.

[Missaberoad]

And from MTL direct if it isn't a "in stock" part... Just shoot them an email, they are very helpful...