Kato 4-8-4 S2

[TVRR]

I may have shot myself in the foot. I purchased a Kato S2 4-8-4 and the more I look at the photo the more I wonder what minimum radius curves it will do. Same as the GS 4s and other similar Kato's?  It just keeps looking longer, and longer....

[mmagliaro]

No.
The Kato S2 4-8-4 will not do curves as tight as the GS4.   I have never measured the minimum, but guessing by
how easily the pilot truck can nudge against things up in the front, I wouldn't expect it to do better than 15"

I know that even on 18", it did a lot better when I removed the outside truck frames (my kitbash didn't
have them, so luckily, I could remove them which gave me more clearance).

[victor miranda]

it looks quite odd rounding 9.75 inch curves...
and it will often jump the rails anyway.

I noticed If I ran it on a loop for a few hours it got a lot better at it.

I like the model, a good one is a prize and they can often be tuned up.
Clean the pickups.  be nice to the drawbar wires.

which kind did you find?
the book/vinyl or the CC box?

victor

[TVRR]

Thanks for your informative answers gentlemen. It was listed on E bay so you may have seen it, from Germany of all places. Santa Fe and Vandy tender with DCC installed, replacement box. It hasn't arrived and won't until probably March 10 or so. 'I was unaware of different versions, this one was labeled Kato/Concord.
Any suggestion for tuning or improving the engine are solicited and appreciated.

[mmagliaro]

As Victor said, it's a great engine.  I didn't mean by my curve negativity to imply otherwise.
It runs smoothly and quietly, and it pulls like an elephant.

Personally, I prefer the older Kato one.  Even though it doesn't have bearing blocks on
the axles, I think it runs better than the later Con-Cor one.

The Kato one comes in a beige colored "book" that snaps closed.
It has no bearing blocks on the axles (The Con-Cor does).

They are geared way too fast, and they really would benefit from a much stronger motor and/or
more gear reduction (but then, I say that about pretty much every engine I buy).

Tune ups?   I hard-wired my tender up to the motor to bypass the drawbar wires entirely.
The tender trucks have the older sled-style pickups, not the axle-point ones.  Keep them
very clean (again as Victor noted), and they will work well.
Add weight to the tender.  That helps a great deal with pickup.
If the Kato GS-4 trucks had the same look, I would consider changing them out.   I have considered
swapping in Bachmann 6-wheel axle-point trucks.

The pilot truck... how tight a radius do you plan on running this on?
Some people can get them to run pretty tight.  I could never get it to reliably track on
anything less than an 18" radius.  The pilot truck wheels or truck frame would touch the
cylinders or underbody and derail.    Part of that has to do with
the fact that I gauge all my wheels to be correctly in gauge on an NMRA plate.  As they come
from the factory, they are usually set narrow.  That may make the pilot truck more tolerant, but
it is just asking for trouble over turnout frogs.   When the wheels are spread out to the correct
width, they are even more prone to hitting the cylinders or sideframes.

If you have hitting problems on the pilot truck,
you may have to file some clearance out of the insides of the cylinder castings, the sideframes,
 or elsewhere.

One final thing...
My S2 has always had an annoying "squeak" or more like a "chirp"
 when it rolls through a turnout.  It doesn't always do it.  But it
does it quite often.
I know one other modeler who has the same problem.  I have removed pilot and trailing trucks, and
it is definitely coming from the drivers, but no amount of polishing the wheel treads or lubrication has
ever made it go away.

[victor miranda]

you are sure the pilot is not hitting the rail head?

victor

[mmagliaro]

you are sure the pilot is not hitting the rail head?

victor

You mean when it squeaks?   No.   I looked for that as one of the first possibilities years ago.
And I just ran and checked that again.  I can clearly see plenty of daylight under that front edge
of the "cow catcher" (ha ha) when it squeaks.  The nature of the sound really sounds like
it is the drivers scraping on the rails somehow.

I should take a video with sound to demonstrate the problem.

[victor miranda]

pilot hitting rails is my only squeek trick.

part of the problem is that a squeek has so few ways it can be made.

you need a source of a vibration and some kind of sounding board
the pilot on the rail is the source and the deck is the board.

got a loose guard rail?
last driver tagging the points?
 
( complete guessing )

the snag here is that sometimes what seems the cause
is not the source

the pilot think I mentioned was in time with the siderods
and I didn't notice the TT was lifting the loco ever so slightly
plus the required curve.
 

[mmagliaro]

Yeah, I've been through a lot of thinking about all the common causes.
It does not always happen on turnouts.  It sometimes happens on curves.  It doesn't always happen over
the *same* turnouts.   It does not happen at very low speeds, only when it gets up to, say, 20 mph or more.

The driver gauge is definitely correct.  I've checked it a million times.   I have noted that those Kato S2 drivers
have a rough feel to their surface (maybe that's part of why it pulls so well).   I have tried running it on its back
and polishing the treads and flange surfaces with 1000 grit sandpaper.   That does seem to alleviate the problem
for a while, which really makes me thing it is a driver scraping on the rail.  It could be as simple as
the axle sliding laterally in the frame, which happens all the time in a steam loco, and the wheel tread making the
squeak on the rail. 

I even tried a little oil on the axles, which I loathe,
 since they slide in the frame slots with no bearings on this version.
It did not help.   (so I have long since cleaned out the oil with alcohol... ha ha)

Me and the one other person I alluded to seem to be the only people I've come across with this problem.   Just lucky
I guess.

[peteski]

You run the loco with the driver axles un-lubricated?!

Could the squeak be coming from the side rods/crank pins?

[TVRR]

Again, thank you all for the suggestions and comments. I had suspected that there weren't a lot of them being run. Since my "layout" incorporates some 11" radius track  I do appear to have scored a hit on my foot.  Guess I'll try it and play by ear but the tender truck up grade to all wheel live needle point trucks will be my first to do.   

[victor miranda]

I am very sure the Kato s2 can run through 11 inch radius.

the bearings have to be run some in a curve to be able to set to it with minimum fuss.

about the truck swap...

take some pictures, I had no plans to try it,
and I would not mind seeing some one else's ideas in action

victor

[mmagliaro]

Peteski:
I'm sure some lingering oil is in there somewhere, but generally, I stay away from it.
It just attracts dirt.   I have tried oil on everything on it: rods, cranks, pins, axles.   Never helped in the least.

I think I really should take some video of it, and then edit it and piece together a whole bunch of "squeak" moments.
Maybe you guys (or even I) will see something I just don't see "live".

Victor, bearings?   What bearings?  I thought this was the Kato version with no bearings that he has.

[peteski]

Peteski:
I'm sure some lingering oil is in there somewhere, but generally, I stay away from it.
It just attracts dirt.   I have tried oil on everything on it: rods, cranks, pins, axles.   Never helped in the least.

I think I really should take some video of it, and then edit it and piece together a whole bunch of "squeak" moments.
Maybe you guys (or even I) will see something I just don't see "live".

And we are telling Russ to lube his Kato SW1500 trucks.    I always lubricate moving metal-to-metal surfaces.  I guess it was just common sense to me.  I suppose that you do lubricate the motor shaft bearings?  When those are dry, they squeal like crazy.

Is it possible that the tender (not the loco) is squeaking?

[victor miranda]

well, what ever is bearing the weight of the loco is the bearings.

in this case they are also the same metal as the chassis.
no separate part...

victor