Walthers HO ore dock for N?

[RSWController]

So Sunday morning I'm sitting around drinking coffee and contemplating a few thoughts. I've always read that a lot of the larger Walthers HO structures are more correct size for N scale. What about the ore dock? I've been considering a small Missabe layout but I'd want to do it quick with not a lot of scratch building.  I'm sure the general size is fine for N but what about the details; i.e., the chutes etc...

[thomasjmdavis]

For things like ore docks and steel mills, I wonder if there might not be enough demand for "HO to N" conversions to justify a Shapeways designer, etcher or resin caster to bring out a line of parts. 

Having stood in a steel mill, and been pretty close to an ore dock- I think you might be on to something.  My complaint with several of the model manufacturers who produce kits in both scales is that they "selectively compress" a model for HO (otherwise known as making it much smaller than actual scale size of the prototype), then make it "N scale" by cutting all the dimensions by 50% (about 1/8th the volume of the HO version).  Would much prefer they make it the same size as the HO model, but with details like doors and windows in N scale proportions, 5 stories instead of 3, etc.  I once owned a small building in an industrial district of Chicago.  Smallest building on the block.  Still, 5000 square feet- 50'x100' floorplan.  Most buildings in the area were multi-story, and about 20,000 square feet per floor (200' of street frontage, 100' deep).  And those were "small businesses," not major manufacturers.

Tom D

[nkalanaga]

Converting the HO ore dock to N scale would probably be almost as much work as building a new one.  The "pockets", where the ore is dumped, and from which it is dumped into the ships, are designed to fit one coupled ore car.  An HO model would have pockets almost, but not quite, wide enough for two N cars, and just wouldn't look right.  The idea would work for gravel, or precious metals, or even coal, but iron ore was handled differently. 

For an N scale model, if Walthers doesn't want to shrink theirs, the best bet might be to find a company willing to make a modular dock, with four to six pockets, designed to be strung together as needed.  The short version would probably be unprototypical, but would fit small layouts, and selling multiple kits to those wanting larger docks would make the tooling more affordable.

Shapeways would be very expensive for an ore dock, simply because there's a lot of material in one of those things, even if it modeled empty.

Another problem with N ore docks, however one is built, is that our ore cars couple too far apart.  A prototypical ore dock wouldn't fit the car spacing, and stretching the dock would annoy those who want to correct the coupling distance.  How that would be solved I leave to the market.  The closest I got my Atlas cars to couple is 26 ft 9 in, and that involved creative carving and MT 905 couplers.  On the other hand, mine haul silver/lead/zinc ore, so the spacing doesn't really matter.  With today's body mounted couplers and small flanges, maybe someone can tool an exact-length model.

[Missaberoad]

As N Kalanaga said, I see the big issue with the pockets and chutes. The dock pockets are on 12 foot centers to allow the 24 foot ore cars to be spotted over every second pocket... I imagine Walthers kept this detail to scale even though the dock its self is compressed...

The kit may supply the basic superstructure tho...  and new chutes would be a good Shapeways project...

[keeper]

It seems ore docks fascinate the one or another modelroader.... 

This is what I plan to do:
https://www.therailwire.net/forum/index.php?topic=31205

Thomas

[jpwisc]

A friend on mine had scale ore chutes designed on Shapeways (by Stoney Smith). They did two variations based on the Two Harbors docks. So that's an option.

[nkalanaga]

Ryan:  Learn something new every day!  I always thought the pockets were on 24 ft centers, one pocket per car. 

[Missaberoad]

Ryan:  Learn something new every day!  I always thought the pockets were on 24 ft centers, one pocket per car.

It does seem a little odd, I think its because they are spaced to match the hatches on the lake freighters...

It would make a very interesting operation, spotting the correct cars over the correct pockets. Especially in the pre taconite days when you have all the different grades of iron ore....

[djconway]

The spacing may be a case of which came first -- the boat or the train?
RR's built docks to support the ships at the time of construction and built hoppers to match the docks. To keep using existing docks ship builders built their ships to match the existing spacing of the docks.  It is a chicken & egg kind of thing.

[nkalanaga]

Ryan:  I've read about the need to mix the ore.  That's the big difference, in both design and operation, between iron ore docks and any other mineral transfer facility I've heard of.  Even coal tipples usually only graded by size, so there was no mixing involved.  I would think a model ore dock would be a layout in itself for someone who wanted to really operate it.

[crrcoal]

Ryan:  I've read about the need to mix the ore.  That's the big difference, in both design and operation, between iron ore docks and any other mineral transfer facility I've heard of.  Even coal tipples usually only graded by size, so there was no mixing involved.  I would think a model ore dock would be a layout in itself for someone who wanted to really operate it.

This is fascinating. Would love to know more about ore operations particularly the switching possibilities.
 For those with space starved layouts; the size of the ore cars would allow longer trains giving the illusion of a bigger layout.

[Missaberoad]

It is a fascinating operation, especially since the ore is mixed right in the dock pockets.

Iron ore is far from pure, the varying mineral contents and impurities are what defines the grades.
each steel mill had its own requirements and would order a specific "mix".

Ore trains would come in from all the various mines to a central sorting yard (Proctor on the DMIR)
Here the trains would be re-marshaled into dock runs based on the requirements for specific ships.

Pat Dorin's Iron ore books are a wonderful reference to the specific operations...

Today its a different story. Taconite pellets are incredibly pure and even have the limestone flux already mixed in.
and the pocket ore dock is nearly extinct. 

[nkalanaga]

For those who haven't seen it, most North American iron ore wasn't crushed rock, like gold or copper ore.  It was basically high iron content dirt, usually wet, so think rusty red mud.  In the winter it froze, and had to be thawed with steam to empty the cars.  In the last years of steam some roads used retired, but kept on standby, steam locos to supply the steam.

Since the lakes also froze, most iron ore roads shut down in the winter, so steaming the cars was a temporary thing, usually in the fall, before the lakes froze over.  Taconite is dry, and seldom freezes, so it can be shipped year round.  If the lakes freeze, it can be stockpiled and loaded later.

Note:  The Firefox spell-check doesn't like "taconite".  Tried to convince me I meant "Taco nite"...

[jmarley76]

For things like ore docks and steel mills, I wonder if there might not be enough demand for "HO to N" conversions to justify a Shapeways designer, etcher or resin caster to bring out a line of parts.

Maybe? I think of this more as a scratch building project, but extra scaled parts would be awesome.

Not to get too far off track, I'm interested in modeling a grain elevator near Shelby, NC. The elevator and silos are roughly 160'-170' tall. The Walthers HO prairie elevator would be a good starting point since it measures out to 160' in N scale.

Also, don't forget that on the MR Clinchfield layout, one of the industries was made from a modified HO kit.

[pnolan48]

Since I'm already building N (and Z) Lakers at 610' and 730', I'll consider building modules for a dock facility, mostly to help ship sales. The ship loading chutes are 12' O.C.; I don't know the compromises needed for the track or cars topside, and think it best just to build that to scale and let the operator figure out how to best match scale.

These dockside facilities are easier to build than large ships. My original thoughts are for eight chute modules (about eight inches in N), perhaps 3.0" high, or about 2.0" above my Lakers, but they could easily be higher, although the run-up then would be longer. The height is partially determined by the necessities of the chutes reaching into the holds, and having sufficient slope for the ore to cascade downward. I haven't measured this, but it is measurable. The chutes could be cast resin, or just assembled out of cut styrene pieces. I think I can not make them operable unless at great expense. Anyone following my marine work knows I can build this at any stage from a slap-together kit to a museum piece.

I project a total market of perhaps 20 modules in three years, so it's not exactly an exciting project at perhaps $30 per module, or $600 total before the cost of drawing them up and producing them. So this would be a loss-leader. But I will consider doing it. I'd like to know what folks actually want. Do you want the run-up ramp also? Do you want it double-tracked?

Your ideas are encouraged.