lets visit "old school"

[victor miranda]

I found I was consoling another forumer very recently over his
stating what I do consider "TRUTH."

I got me to thinking about why I think
"it should be done this way"

and what it means when
a model loco is made with axles wipers for pick-up under a tender
or the pickups b-mann is using in their recent diesels.

I suppose the two newer diesels will be in this discussion

I think the KAto FEF motor along with the Atlas mp15 motor should be here.
but as finger brushes are some what new to n-scale, they may not be old school.

is the use of side rods to power steam drivers old school?
it is new to n-scale... I guess it started with the Kato Mike here in the US.
I have heard the gs-4  blew out axles and not worn out side rods,

all that kinda implies 'old school' is an insult...
I think some new ideas are mighty lame before they try to walk

I happen to think three pole motors are old school and time and tide have overrun that idea.
we have them in rather expensive models.

I know the steam engine side has a lot of kits if you like good performance.

'scuse the  implied giggle...
the diesel guys look like they are headed for the same roller coaster ride.

If any one knows a good reason for 'old school' methods being put into brand new locos,
believe me, I want to hear it.

victor

[peteski]

The Kato's use of siderods in GS4 is strictly cosmetic. The only powered axle is the one with traction tire and the one which supports majority of the locos mass.  The blown axles were mostly due to rough handling (pushing it on the track by hand, etc.).

Same with Kato Mike - there three axles were gear driven - the last driver which had the traction tire was not even connected to the siderods. The front driver (driven by siderods was also pretty much cosmetic).

Are those old-schoolk designs?  I don't see it that way.

My strong opinion is that the Kato-style of axle-point cone-bearing-cup pickups/bearing should be adopted on all new models which have outside bearing trucks. There is no reason not to use that type of design - it is proven to work better than all the other designs (and quite a few model companies have adopted that design).  It ought to be used, even if that type of a truck has to be connected to the motor with wires.

If I seem gushing over Kato's engineering and desigin - I am:  I really think that Kato is the main technological  innovator of N scale models. They have their duds too - but overall they still come up on the top.

Also minimizing manually soldered wire rat's nest inside the loco makes the design more reliable. Nowadays there are flexible circuit boards used in every portable electronic device to interconnect multiple sub-assemblies.  Similar method shoudkl be adopted  for wiring sub-assembiles within model locomotives.

[victor miranda]

I dunno peteski....

my thinking is that not many seem to pay much attention.

how it is made
costs associated
how long the mechanism will last

well,
 next time you mention something is old school
 no one is going to have a leg to stand on.
cause they are allowing you (and me) to define the term.

victor

[Missaberoad]

One thought that comes to mind is when you say old school is it synonymous with outdated?
I can see how people would make that connection and see a negative context in the term...

as far as design goes needle point axles and vertical split frames are pushing 30 years old, at what
point do they become old school? 

[peteski]

as far as design goes needle point axles and vertical split frames are pushing 30 years old, at what
point do they become old school? 

When someone comes up with a newer (and better) design.     So far, some "new" designs hark back to the humble beginnings of N scale. 

Even Kato does not always use the split-frame design, but the needle-point trucks are still  IMO the best design for free-rolling and excellent pickup trucks.  Also Kato non-split frame designs still manage to remain wire-free.

[victor miranda]

at what point do they become old school?

when some one makes something that is clearly better....

axle wipers work, no doubt...
axle point pickups are clearly better.

the axle wiper went home from the bar alone.
he couldn't pick-up anything!

victor

[victor miranda]

well, peteski,

you mention that kato has loco mechanisms that are wire free.

wire as in the drawbar of the Mike
or wire as in a DCC decoder install
or wire to the motor of the kato FEF?

I think insulated wires soldered to a part that will flex
is a horrible idea is you want reliability.

Auto makers have spent a lot of research on getting reliable wiring
they use mechanical means to hold the wire steady at any crimp or solder point.

I can't think of any n-scale loco with a soldered wire with any kind of mechanical wire hold.

victor

[Missaberoad]

Wires is definitely something that gives me pause...

I just grabbed an original lifelike BL2 to ponder as I type and the one thing that
jumps out at me is how unfriendly it is to tinkering.

I'm far from a n scale locomotive "guru" and I can take an atlas/kato loco apart with a screwdriver, and put it back together
no worse for wear (probably the important part)

To take the trucks off this thing I would need a soldering iron. 
Not to mention the way the trucks are attached there is alot of play and alot of friction at the same time.

I wonder how similar modern "old school" designs are and how easy they will be to maintain....

[peteski]

well, peteski,

you mention that kato has loco mechanisms that are wire free.

wire as in the drawbar of the Mike
or wire as in a DCC decoder install
or wire to the motor of the kato FEF?

Any wires are undesirable.  Flexing and just static chassis wiring.  As you well know, Kato minimizes use of wires (well, the new FEF-3 does have 2 short statric wires in it).  But as you noted, any flexing wire  connections can be problematic in the long run.  Of course the static wire harness (like in a decoder installation) is not as critical as not having wires between moving parts.

With decoder boards which simply replace existing light boards (or the light boards equipped with the 6-pin NEM DCC socket), the wire-free design can be maintained (in both DC and DCC).  For both reliability and easy of maintenance (which to me is also very important). Like Missaberoad stated: I rather not have to use a soldering iron just to disassemble the loco for cleaning or servicing.

[victor miranda]

Missaberoad

and how do you think I became a self appointed n-scale loco repair guru?

.... mostly from slotcar repair.
the old... late 70's Atlas gp-9 is made much the same.
do not take it apart unless you absolutely must.
I have taken them apart.  and I have replaced t
he wires as they get ever shorter from fatigue cuts.

when your bl-2 was first made, it was a tried and ordinary design.
when the upgrade was done the same is true of that design also.
at the time each version was made I would not have accused them of being old school.

I love to tinker... and at some point it is a pain because to keep it going one MUST tinker.
I truly want to avoid that situation, mostly for others sake.

I have found that not many will tinker if they can avoid it.
I tend to howl for our manufacturers to stay with the low tinker-factor designs.

I am nothing short of astonished that b-mann's recent diesel models sell.
it truly is a throwaway design.  it is on the low side of needing tinkering.
b-mann may have upgraded the motor since the first reviews I read
but that will not save the pick-up system.

[peteski]

Victor, I think that only you and me (maybe Max and maybe precious few others) are the few who trully notice and care how the N scale model locos are designed. 

[victor miranda]

Hi Peteski,

yes it is clear to me that you and I do pay attention to the details of
'how they are made'

I am pretty sure we are in the company of a few dozen
who care about all those details.

I know a lot do care.
 it is just that they tend to eye glaze pretty quick
when the discussion turns to gear ratios
pick-up tabs and motor/torque/speed values
or why using ph-bronze is better than brass for this part...

I gotta go to bed ...

[loyalton]

I would like to see the revival of the Rivarossi Pacifics and Mikados that date originally from the late '60's, done Old School. They won't really be for us'ns. It would be closer to a mass market kind of thing, something to expose more kids to model RRing who would not have exposure otherwise. 
 
All the old shortcomings were fixable and were pretty much fixed. The last runs were very good and are probably the majority of the survivors some 30 years later. The construction is quite robust. You would only need a minimal knowledge of electrical stuff to troubleshoot, with instructions to be provided with loco and online.

What I'm thinking is to have a basic reliable nearly-no-brainer N scale steam engine (stop laughing, you steam veterans!) as part of an entry level/casual runner/Christmas tree layout. Period. Low frustration factor -- anyone can run trains, though not with the quality and fine control of the more expensive locos of today. It should last for years, an alien concept nowadays because price point has become the buyer's main criterion. So the concept is like basic Lionel but in N scale, at a lower price point than Lionel really ever was. Throw in a line of cheap RR cars -- old dies would work.

KISS. The Rivarossi design already exists. Add a robust existing motor. I'm not thinking of an engine that will take an hour to go from tie to tie. I'm talking about one that will run out of the box or storage. Exposed motor bearings, yup -- easy to lube. Big flanges, yup -- staying on the track at 70 scale mph is more important than being convertible to code 40. Noise? Some, probably. These are intended to be more in the toy realm and to be a gateway (drug?) to more serious model RRing.

Would any manufacturer stick their necks out and re-do these things? Perhaps yes, perhaps no. But I think we do need newly-built entry-level stuff in N.

Alan

[Mark5]

at what point do they become old school?

when some one makes something that is clearly better....

axle wipers work, no doubt...
axle point pickups are clearly better.

the axle wiper went home from the bar alone.
he couldn't pick-up anything!

victor

Poetic! 

[peteski]

I would like to see the revival of the Rivarossi Pacifics and Mikados that date originally from the late '60's, done Old School. They won't really be for us'ns. It would be closer to a mass market kind of thing, something to expose more kids to model RRing who would not have exposure otherwise. 
 
All the old shortcomings were fixable and were pretty much fixed. The last runs were very good and are probably the majority of the survivors some 30 years later. The construction is quite robust. You would only need a minimal knowledge of electrical stuff to troubleshoot, with instructions to be provided with loco and online.

What I'm thinking is to have a basic reliable nearly-no-brainer N scale steam engine (stop laughing, you steam veterans!) as part of an entry level/casual runner/Christmas tree layout. Period. Low frustration factor -- anyone can run trains, though not with the quality and fine control of the more expensive locos of today. It should last for years, an alien concept nowadays because price point has become the buyer's main criterion. So the concept is like basic Lionel but in N scale, at a lower price point than Lionel really ever was. Throw in a line of cheap RR cars -- old dies would work.

KISS. The Rivarossi design already exists. Add a robust existing motor. I'm not thinking of an engine that will take an hour to go from tie to tie. I'm talking about one that will run out of the box or storage. Exposed motor bearings, yup -- easy to lube. Big flanges, yup -- staying on the track at 70 scale mph is more important than being convertible to code 40. Noise? Some, probably. These are intended to be more in the toy realm and to be a gateway (drug?) to more serious model RRing.

Would any manufacturer stick their necks out and re-do these things? Perhaps yes, perhaps no. But I think we do need newly-built entry-level stuff in N.

Alan

How can something with tender and the loco each picking up electricity only from one rail be really reliable?  That nugget wouldn't be easily modernized due to the model's construction method. Victor (Mr. Reliable Pickup) Will be rolling his eyes!   

You want a cheap (and sometimes reliable) models for youngsters?  Try Bachmann!    Besides, the lower price might be you remembering the price of those models in the early 70's and comparing them to today's prices. The final runs of all the Rivarossi steamers wasnt't all that low priced.

As far a stem loco for the kids goes, I don't think today's kids are all that interested.  Well, maybe sans some Thomas the Tank engine or Polar Express. Other than that steam locos are alien to them'.   Instead give them something they have seen 1st hand like an Amtrak train or a double-stack inter-modal.