Experiments with Vallejo and M. Graham Paint

[tom mann]

When word got out that the Polly Scale line would be discontinued last year, I did two things:

1.  Bought up a lot of Polly Scale paint in the "hard to mix" colors, like Dirt, Earth, DGRW Brown, etc.
2.  Bought the set of Vallejo paint for weathering locomotives:  http://www.micromark.com/vallejo-acrylic-paint-set-for-weathering-locomotives,11206.html

The set is actually designed for weathering German military vehicles, with color names like "Panzer Grey".  The set is pretty good for almost all weathering, but you need a darker flat black for exhaust coloring: the black Vallejo includes is a gloss black.  [Also, In my opinion, the included Sand color needs to be brightened up so it is suitable for a fade.  I would probably use @GaryHinshaw 's recommended M. Graham Zinc White (or a Titanium white - stand by for my tests). ]

You'll need to thin the paint to use it for fading.  Why?  If you zoom in on the Micro Mark examples (the Army Alco shows it best), you can see that the paint was used without thinning, the telltale evidence being the small pigment drops everywhere. 

I'm using two Liquitex products for thinning now: matte medium and fluid medium.  You can't use their fluid medium by itself, so I mix in the matte medium.

1.  http://www.liquitex.com/archivalpermanentvarnish/ 
2.  http://www.liquitex.com/FluidMediums/

More information and photos to come.

[tom mann]

Again, if you use paint straight out of the bottle or tube for the purpose of fading, you'll end up with what looks like a spatter effect.  The paint was designed to cover a surface, so the only way to achieve a fade would be to allow the paint to partially cover the surface.

Polly Scale was an excellent paint for fading, and I used Aged White and Reverse Osmosis water (i.e., water without any minerals) to get an effect like the bottom image:



I would think this is the "gold standard"-even magnified, there is almost no evidence of paint pigment or spatter.

I was excited to try Vallejo paints, and mixed some Vallejo Sand in with M. Graham Zinc White - a few drops of Sand to a small dollop of white from the tube.  I then mixed that with Liquitex Matte Varnish to create the equivalent of Polly Scale consistency, and then further thinned with Liquitex Fluid Medium.  I had a dark piece of styrene and would continuously test the mixture.  I thought I had something that worked, but was disappointed to see a spattered finish on this HO tank car:



I refined the mixture to include equal parts Sand/Zinc White to Matte Varnish, and then one part of that to three parts of Fluid Medium.  This got me slightly better results on an N scale tank car:



Further experiments didn't get any better for me:  I could still make out a lot of white pigment no matter how much I thinned the mixture.  I'm interested to see high-res photos of @GaryHinshaw 's Zinc White experiments to see if his formulation is better.

To smooth everything out, I mixed some Panzer Grey  () with 50% Fluid Medium:

[GaryHinshaw]

Last time I tried this (about a year ago), I got a similar result with a bit of visible pigmentation.  I'll review my earlier work and see if that was any better.  My recollection is that it was...  I like the last look you got on the HO tanker though (after the Panzer Grey).

[GaryHinshaw]

Here is an old example, before & after.  You should be able to click on it to get full res.  No visible spattering here...  I share your puzzlement about the current examples.

[Scottl]

After reading the Fading Fast thread, I bought Golden liquid Zinc White and Oxide Red, choosing the liquid versions over the tube.  I experimented with these dilluted with Polly Scale flat and thinner last week and had good results, with no visible evidence of splatter on some containers.  I can't do it justice with my photography.

[tom mann]

I mixed up a batch of Vallejo Sand, M. Graham Zinc White, and WW Fluid.

This is on a Z scale tanker, and aside from a little spattering on the side (which I think is a dirty airbrush nozzle at this point) I'm convinced that the WW Fluid is a better thinning medium.  There must be a chemical reaction taking place 

[ednadolski]

I'm convinced that the WW Fluid is a better thinning medium.  There must be a chemical reaction taking place 

My guess is, it's reducing the surface tension so that the paint will atomize into smaller droplets when sprayed (or flow better when brushed). (I think that means it is altering a chemical property, but is not a chemical reaction per se.)  Maybe a higher airbrush pressure will help?

I don't use WWF myself, as it's probably adding enough toxicity to make it like working with enamels. Maybe I am over-stating that (and those labels can make anyone paranoid), but are there any other alternatives?

Ed

[Hyperion]

Vallejo paints are more of a vinyl-like paint (along with Lifecolor AK, Ammo, and others) and go one and dry almost sheet-like, and, in that manner, tend to be a lot more similar to the old Model-Flex line of railroad paints, and not similar to the Polly-Scale line (only Tamiya and Gunze acrylics are of a similar chemical makeup).   They also tend to be EXTREMELY susceptible to any sort of surface contamination and 'bead' up very easily on less-than-perfectly-clean or even just smooth non-prepped surfaces, which could, in part, be some of what you're seeing.  They rely on getting a good 'grip' onto the surface to yield good finish and, in fact, the general application method of those paints in the Armor world where they are common, is a very fine mist of paint first to give it something to grip onto, let that dry momentarily (kinda spatters a bit), then drycoat over that and it all self-levels out... you're attempting to use JUST that first layer as your weathering layer with no additional topcoat, and it's just not what they're exactly designed for (armor modelers generally switch to enamels for weathering layers over acrylic basecoats).  In the past, I've used the Liquitex products to about the same success as you are showing here, perhaps a bit more spatter, but I wasn't attempting to weather with it (use enamels for that) but rather place the initial thin coats and was just using the Liquitex products to prevent the tip-dry problem I was having.

Now particularly surprising is that you said you got better results from Windshield Washer Fluid (I assume that's what you meant by WW Fluid)??

This is surprising because Vallejo paints, unlike most acrylics, absolutely do NOT like alcohol at all.  If I accidentally use alcohol in a paint cup with Vallejo paints I get instantaneous glue.  It thickens into a paste literally instantly.  It's a mess and a bitch to clean up.  While I have not tried this with the Air (it's not a mistake you try to repeat on purpose), there's not supposed to be any difference in the makeup of those paints, just their consistency, so if you are using alcohol and achieving good results that's very surprising.  I would figure, at the very least, if you didn't gum up your airbrush you'd get the opposite of the results you expected -- lots of spattering.

Personally, to do the work you're doing, I would use Tamiya paints thinned with Mr. Hobby self-leveling thinner.  Tamiya is, hands-down, the best acrylic paint on the market.  It just suffers from availability problems on occasion and a distinct dearth of options of color choices (not a big deal if you're talking about weathering).   Tamiya (and Gunze) are much more 'manipulable' paints, IMHO.  Vallejo, Ammo, etc with their 'vinyl-like' application are awesome for coverage and you can achieve beautiful topcoats.  But they don't go on super thin very well, and they are exceedingly difficult to do things like hairspray or salt techniques with because they tend to 'peel' rather than 'chip' as their self-leveling nature has them bonding tightly to one another in a super-thin 'sheet' on the surface (two coats of hairspray under them you literally can pull up one side of your paint job and peel the whole thing off).  Finding a way to break their surface tension on application is certainly key to making them much more useful for what you're looking to do... how you managed that with an alcohol-based product with a Vallejo product, I'm not entirely sure.  I'm half-tempted to try it with some of the Model Air that I've got, just to see what happens.  I just won't do it on the airbrush cup itself right away.

[tom mann]

Now that you mention it, the Vallejo + M. Graham mixture with WW Fluid beaded up after a few minutes...I assumed I didn't mix it completely until I saw your reply...

[tom mann]

There are actually a number of sites that mention a "learning curve" with Vallejo paint.  Some tips I've picked up:

1.  Shake the bottle much more vigorously as you would expect.
2.  Use their thinner or Windex to thin the paint.

[Hyperion]

There are actually a number of sites that mention a "learning curve" with Vallejo paint.  Some tips I've picked up:

1.  Shake the bottle much more vigorously as you would expect.
2.  Use their thinner or Windex to thin the paint.

As I've mentioned in a couple of the other threads on Vallejo, I recommend using a shaker bead in the bottle.  Some people use small nuts.  Personally, I bought a necklace of lava beads (anything non-metal in my opinion) on AMazon for a couple  bucks.  They'll last a long time.  You pry the cap off the bottle (usually can use just your fingers, just give it a little twist -- pliers work too) drop a bead or two in , and make it a LOT easier to shake it all up. 

[James Costello]

So where are we with our thinking on Model Master paints as an alternative to Polly Scale?

FWIW, seems to be all they talk about now in MR...

[tom mann]

I haven't tried Model Master - yet.  I really would like to get the M. Graham / Vallejo combination working because at this point, I have enough of both to last my entire lifetime.  I actually have enough Polly Scale too, but at some point it will run out and I would rather find a suitable replacement earlier in life than later.

A little more tweaking of the formula and I'm getting happier.  This was from the 4 car MT set that came pre-weathered.  In my opinion, the car was not indicative of how the GWS cars weather, as it was painted with dark rust/dirt colors and not lightened to a baby blue color.  I lightened it to get it as close as I could to the base blue color as seen in a lot of photos.

The finish is not as fine as I would like, but when viewed at 1:1 it is acceptable.  I used WW Fluid as the thinner, this time stirring for a long time.  I didn't notice the beading up as the other night, so maybe that was due to improper mixing on my part.

[wcfn100]

I typically don't like to shake my paints.  Any chance you've tried one of these:



I've had good results getting older Polyscale (stuff that's been opened) mixed back to something paintable ( I'd like to say 'new' but who really knows).

I would love it if you could find a suitable replacement for the fading technique. I just set aside a few cars that just need some new shop dates and weathering to be 'done' and fading is a big part of that.

Jason

[tom mann]

I would love it if you could find a suitable replacement for the fading technique. I just set aside a few cars that just need some new shop dates and weathering to be 'done' and fading is a big part of that.

You mean an airbrush-less technique?

I admit fading with an airbrush is difficult - almost surgical in nature.  The airbrush has to be perfectly clean, needle in good shape, mix has to be just right, etc.  Once you get it right, it is magical:  you first see light reflected back at you from the wet paint, and then almost instantly it dries and the most beautiful of hazes forms.

I haven't used a motorized stirrer; mainly I'm mixing a small amount right in the color cup with a toothpick.