Black light and invisible ink for car identification?

[wcfn100]

So last week my son got a happy meal and in it was a small black light for decoding some mystery book.  Then tonight I'm driving along and it popped in my head the this could be used on car roof tops for identifying cars in congested areas.  Obviously there's issues with certain car types, but that doesn't mean they're aren't solutions too.  I don't think I could be the first person to think of this, so I'm wondering if anyone seen or used something like this.

Jason

[peteski]

I've heard of using thumbtacks or labels on the roofwalks (or even RFID chips in the cars) but this it the 1st time I've heard of your idea.  I think that is pretty clever.

The only negatives about that is that it would be hard to use that in strong ambient light and the invisible ink might change the glossiness of the car surface.  But for nighttime operations that would be the ballz!

[Denver Road Doug]

I think this is a unique idea.   I've certainly never heard it before but admittedly I have yet to get hard core about ops.   I suspect it would affect the paint/finish but I honestly have no idea.

[TiVoPrince]

Additionally
you could add a bunch of ghostly images to the sides of cars in the spirit of the season...

[pennhand]

I have tried this.  Mine was a marking kit with a pen light with an UV LED.  It works but on some roofs the ink is visible even with out the UV.  I have not dne it since the original test.

Fred

[mark dance]

So would the idea be to write the car number on the roof to make it easier to identify the car when trying to match it to a switchlist or car card?

Thumbtacks and labels are used for car routing, which varies, but the black light visible ink would be permanent on the car right?

Md

[up1950s]

Those cards and tacks CI's ( Card/car ID's ) always annoyed me as a viewer . It just makes it impossible for me to see the need for realistic looking trains . So anything that reduces the eyesores is a improvement . I think the answer is what the real railroads use . Here is what I think is a better system .

On the bottom of each car is a form of bar code in miniature . It has all the info about the car , loaded or full ,destination , might even have maintenance history and a photo of the car  . On each loco there is also one , with its info , and an assigned train number , destination , and whatever else . These are read by strategically placed under tie readers that have 2 way communication with your computer . The computer can add , change , and delete all info . The computer will list all assigned trains by train number , all engines , and cars in order of there placement within the train in the general form of a spreadsheet . As the train passes over readers the consist gets updated .

I think this is doable , and would be a big seller .

[mark dance]

Apologies in advance for sending this thread on a bit of a tangent...

Those cards and tacks CI's ( Card/car ID's ) always annoyed me as a viewer . It just makes it impossible for me to see the need for realistic looking trains . So anything that reduces the eyesores is a improvement . I think the answer is what the real railroads use . Here is what I think is a better system .

On the bottom of each car is a form of bar code in miniature . It has all the info about the car , loaded or full ,destination , might even have maintenance history and a photo of the car  . On each loco there is also one , with its info , and an assigned train number , destination , and whatever else . These are read by strategically placed under tie readers that have 2 way communication with your computer . The computer can add , change , and delete all info . The computer will list all assigned trains by train number , all engines , and cars in order of there placement within the train in the general form of a spreadsheet . As the train passes over readers the consist gets updated .

I think this is doable , and would be a big seller .

Seth Neumann has developed an RFID system which I believe does exactly what you describe Richie.  The RFID tags are glued to the undersides of the cars' trucks to keep them a fixed height above the readers.  I believe he plans to commercialize it.  It can be used in conjunction with something like JMRI/OPs to manage car movement.  A presentation on it can be viewed here http://bayrails.com/layouts/neumann/RFID%20in%20Model%20Railroading%2020130629.pdf

Lots of upside (I plan to investigate it to automate OS'ing the caboose passing TO stations) and only a bit of downside: need to gap the rails where readers are, the expense of multiple readers and tags, a database system is needed, and while car tracking is automated to reduce "losing" cars you still need a switchlist of some form to direct car movements so you do still need to read car numbers. 

From investigating different car forwarding approaches and considering different "technologies" for different aspects of the demand generation/car assignment/marking steps of car forwarding, I believe that systems that require N scale car numbers to be read can add as much as 20% overhead into operating  a layout.  I define overhead as operator  time required in addition to moving cars and aligning tracks. In yards the overhead may be much higher.  While this is often manageable, under high stress conditions such as fast clock rates greater than 2:1, in yard classification, or when significant car movements are planned - all conditions my layout has - this overhead of reading car numbers and/or managing car cards can become the critical path step.  Realism breaks down because in prototype conditions the steps of car identification are much easier to manage at the same time other things are going on.  So you can get both a reduction in realism as well as a reduction in operator enjoyment.

Larger layouts that employ systems that require car numbers to be read may introduce additional people in the process to find cars, make switch lists, manage car cards etc.  especially in yards.  After investigating switch list based car assignment systems I didn't have the space, heat capacity or interest to introduce these roles.

And an interesting comment on tags.  When confronted with opinions, I like to gather data.  The C&W uses tags for operations as it solves numerous issues for us.  I did a survey of everyone who has operated on the layout since the current tag/spreadsheet system has been in place (about 60 people ) and the response was that 92% thought the approach did a better job for operations on the C&W than they imagined any other approach would do, while conversely only 19% felt there was any visual detraction from the tags while they operated.  Note that the group is skewed from the norm as this is a group of people whose passion tends to operations and the survey was not blind.  For glamour shots, article photos, and for audience who are strictly modelers, I just take the tags off . 

And coming back to the original purpose of this thread, if invisible ink can be used to mark the car number and road name on the top of the car this might make finding the car easier and reducing the overhead (somewhat) of systems that require car number reading.

md

[MVW]

I did a survey of everyone who has operated on the layout since the current tag/spreadsheet system has been in place (about 60 people ) and the response was that 92% thought the approach did a better job for operations on the C&W than they imagined any other approach would do, while conversely only 19% felt there was any visual detraction from the tags while they operated.

md

Those are interesting numbers, Mark. Personally, I've never given tags serious consideration because I consider them an eyesore. But it might be like a democracy -- the worst form of government except for all the other forms of government.

I guess in a way it's no different than the use of backdrops as scenic dividers on peninsulas. In many instances I prefer "soft" dividers (buildings, etc.) rather than a backdrop. I've found that I'm usually so interested in what I'm doing that I don't pay attention to what's happening on the far side of the table.

Jim

[mark dance]

Those are interesting numbers, Mark. Personally, I've never given tags serious consideration because I consider them an eyesore. But it might be like a democracy -- the worst form of government except for all the other forms of government.

I guess in a way it's no different than the use of backdrops as scenic dividers on peninsulas. In many instances I prefer "soft" dividers (buildings, etc.) rather than a backdrop. I've found that I'm usually so interested in what I'm doing that I don't pay attention to what's happening on the far side of the table.

Jim

Agreed.  I think it is commonly written that, when operating, operators don't notice anything more than 4" on either side of the track (if that).  the C&W experience seems to have proven this out. 

md

[Denver Road Doug]

Personally, I've never given tags serious consideration because I consider them an eyesore.Jim

I will confess to having this attitude before as well.  But after operating on a layout that has them...it is hardly noticeable, and really makes for a good "system".   I'm still learning it, but I certainly wouldn't rule it out as I had before.

It all goes back to photography or public viewing.  For those instances you want it to look as realistic as possible, to put your best foot forward.

For an ops session, it's a concession that can be made without really affecting the overall experience.

[mark dance]

I will confess to having this attitude before as well.  But after operating on a layout that has them...it is hardly noticeable, and really makes for a good "system".   I'm still learning it, but I certainly wouldn't rule it out as I had before.

It all goes back to photography or public viewing.  For those instances you want it to look as realistic as possible, to put your best foot forward.

For an ops session, it's a concession that can be made without really affecting the overall experience.

Great to see others have had the same experience.  Nothing new I guess...John Allen found the same. 

md

[nkalanaga]

Richie:  I've sometimes thought about using bar codes, and wondered if one could be reliable read if it was the width of the center sill.  That way it would be out of sight, automatically centered, and at a more-or-less standard height, except on cars with fishbelly center sills or no center sill at all.  But I've never had a need for such a system, so went no further than thinking about it.

If yours works it probably would sell.  Basically a scaled-down ACI system, and we wouldn't have to worry about keeping the labels clean, which is partly what killed the prototype ACI.

[peteski]

Using RFID shoudl eliminate any possible problems of using the barcode method.  Price for each system would probably be comparable.  But then using UV ink IDs would be much lower tech and cheaper solution.

[Rossford Yard]

I will admit to fantasizing about using underside bar codes or similar, but how many readers would you have to have?  Seems like at least as many as uncoupling ramps, no?

You could have just one at the end of the staging, and in/out tracks of yards or staging, but to really track cars in a yard, wouldn't you need one on every track to mark the passing of a car into that track?

How much do readers cost?

Besides potential cost, I see the black ink on roof solution as lower tech (and thus more reliable) and at least you have a way to manually check the car with the black light.  And, it seems like it might replicate the switchman's job of reading the switch list and matching cars better, but allow it to be done easily in N scale without reading small car numbers.  I would bet for most cars, you might not even need it, but its there if you do.

In most ops sessions I have been in, if I am looking for a BN boxcar, and I see the roof or top side panels in BN green, 99% of the time, that is the car I am looking for......since most ops sessions are somewhat simplified for fun.