Lemon Locomotives

[mmagliaro]

A Bachmann 44T pulling the same train was 0.03 so 30 milliamps.

Yes, that reading is 30 mA.  I am surprised at that.  30 is coreless motor territory. Does the 44T have a coreless?
I didn't think it did.
As a complete aside... here's another little tidbit about the wonder of the Faulhaber or Maxon motors.
Typically, one of those, just free-running in your hand, will only draw about 7 or 8 mA.  When you screw on the gearhead
with a 4:1 gear reduction in it, it draws about 10 mA.  That gives you an idea of how silky smooth and frictionless
those gearheads really are.  12 volts x 2 mA = 24 mW    24 milliwatts of power "wasted" by the gearhead.
When the engine is pulling a heavy train under full load, that motor might draw 100 mA, so 12 x 100 mA = 1.2 watts.
.024 / 1.2 = .02...  In other words, we only lose 2% of our power in the gearhead.   E-F-F-I-C-I-E-N-T !!!

[peteski]

It may not make him a liar, but it makes him at best, irresponsible; at worst, something less than honest.  If I sell something at a show or on FeePay that somebody supposedly modified before I received it, I state that the person from whom I acquired it said that he did whatandsuch to it, but that I have not or can not verify that.  The seller should have told VonRyan that the person from whom he acquired "stated" that it received new motors, but that he had not verified it or was not able to verify it. 

If someone tries to sell me something that he states has had an "upgrade", if I can not verify it, I ask him if he has or is able to verify it.  If I can not receive a satisfactory answer, I decline to spend my money.  If he is willing to refund my purchase price should I be able to verify that the claim is inaccurate, I MIGHT open my wallet, but even then, I would have to think hard about it.

Some people will tell you anything to get your money, especially when it comes to a millstone such as N scale brass.  Many people in N know that it brass is pretty, overpriced, poorly operating HOON-kay.  For that reason, they will not buy it.  I bought it once, that was enough. 

The sad thing for vendors is that they can not cut the price of brass too far, as they get little, if any, price break on it.

LOL!
I think that you are overreacting a bit.  If you read the 1st post, Cody wrote F3 A-B pair. Second-Run Hallmark, made by Samhongsa. ... I paid $100 for the pair, and I was also told that the had been remotored with Sagami can motors

So much for overpriced brass locos.  At $50 per loco they are cheaper than any equivalent plastic model. The buyer must have received less than $50 per model (unless the seller is in it to lose money).  To me $50 per brass loco would be reasonable, even for a broken model (or a dummy).  So, I don't think that Cody got swindled at all.

As for the Sagami motor, I'm still waiting to see some photos.  Maybe they are Sagami but just not a can motor.  When people hear "Sagami", many automatically assume that it has to be a can motor. But Sagami could have produced open frame motors too.  Again, at this point I don't even know what those motors look like.

Either way, Cody got these at $50 pre loco. IMO, even if these were dummies, the price was reasonable for what they are.

[randgust]

One thing I haven't seen mentioned here in addition to the multimeter issue is a very simple and inexpensive tool - a 2-wire cable with little alligator clips at either end.  They are typically the micro-alligator clips sold in Radio Shack (little brass ones).    Solder up a set of four on a 2-conductor flexible stranded-wire cable and you've got one of the most basic diagnostic tools in N, because you can bypass all manner of ills in troubleshooting locomotives and track.  And little clips make up for the fact that you've only got two hands.

Given that you've got a motor with two connections, you usually 'hotwire' from the DC source (or rails) directly to the motor leads, that gets you past every horrible pickup issue that N is known for.   Because if it isn't shorted out its an open circuit, and finding it isn't that hard with these test leads.   Then you start working out, one step at a time, to find out what doesn't work.

Better than that, you can lay a locomotive upside down and touch to one wheel at a time, making sure it is or isn't picking up as it should.  You can clip directly to the frame halves on your Kato F3 and try that, or clip to a test lead and poke around.   You can completely bypass the entire DCC issue with the board insulated out with a scrap of paper in the contacts and touch the motor leads.   Between these jumper cables and a basic multitester (to check for shorts) you're about 75% there.   Tuning the mechanism to run efficiently (i.e. current draw to minimum) can only happen after you successfully diagnose either the short or open circuits and at least get the motor to spin.    Stupid simple stuff happens in all locomotives, heck, with Katos and Atlas you can simply have one of the motor contacts no longer touching the DCC board contact or the frame and it's lights out.

You're talking to the guy that caught an Atlas (Roco) GP40 on FIRE in 1973, we're talking real flames here, because the manufacturers instructions were to lubricate using vegetable oil, and commutator fire rings from a hot and carboned-up motor can actually ignite vegetable oil, and plastic soaked in it.   Blew it out like a birthday candle.  Melted a hole through the body right at the commutator.   We've all been there - the only difference is today you can get on line and find people that can help you immediately.   Most of us have LEARNED basic electronics by dealing with the models in slow and painful ways.    But it's not your imagination on finding lemons, that's for sure.   I check Mark (Spookshows) site before I buy anything, same way I check TripAdvisor before I book a motel!  Bugs in everything!

[victor miranda]

I'm back in Baltimore. Hope our paths cross!

   you never know what will happen.

[victor miranda]

hi VonRyan,

here we go.   you have to start somewhere

here is a good lead to a lot of reading.

http://www.ntrak.org/steam_data_book_description.htm

I usually try to get people to learn by having them tackle the simpler types

one of the simplest locos you can buy is the Kato 11-103.
it is 4 wheels and a motor.  it has all the ordinary problems of any n-scale loco.
The next simplest and is a steam engine is the minitrix 0-6-0.

after those two, you will have more parts.  N-scale locos are not all that complicated.
they look complicated because they are models of locos with lots of extra machinery.
With the brass f3 you are in the middle of the range.
There are a lot of little tasks you have to learn to to do.
as well as keep track of all the little screws and drive-shaft parts and where they go.

no one of those tasks is hard.  It is just a lot to do.   
you have to get to know each one...
there is getting the loco apart... 
and have the pieces  next you have to know
how to clean motors, gears, universals, and bearings then on to
reassembly while checking them as you go.

you can do all of them quickly once you have some practice.
the first few.... can be a trial.

victor






 

[chicken45]

We all should bring these lemons to Bedford this weekend. We'll have a party...

[brokemoto]

LOL!
If you read the 1st post, Cody wrote F3 A-B pair. Second-Run Hallmark, made by Samhongsa. ... I paid $100 for the pair, and I was also told that the had been remotored with Sagami can motors

So much for overpriced brass locos.  At $50 per loco they are cheaper than any equivalent plastic model. The buyer must have received less than $50 per model (unless the seller is in it to lose money).  To me $50 per brass loco would be reasonable, even for a broken model (or a dummy).  So, I don't think that Cody got swindled at all.

Either way, Cody got these at $50 pre loco. IMO, even if these were dummies, the price was reasonable for what they are.

I did read what they were.  Von Ryan did state, as indeed you quote from him, that he was told (emphasis mine) that someone had remotored them.  It is from there that I draw my "somewhat less than honest" statement.  Von Ryan did state that the fifty bananas apiece that he paid was more than even the metal was worth.  He added that the decalled lettering was poorly done.  This meant that in addition to everything else that might have to be done to these things, he would need, at least, to redo the lettering.  At best, he might be able to remove the lettering without damaging the basecoat, apply a coat of glossy something, add the Microscale decals and apply a matte finish.  At worst, he might have to strip the things, repaint, add gloss, add lettering and finish with matte.

The bottom line that I drew from the Original Post was that he had paid one hundred bananas for something with which he could not do anything.  That is too much to pay.  Forty bananas for the pair, maybe.  Do the appropriate reworking and put them onto the newest B-mann, an IM or Kato chassis and have a nicely factory detailed A-B set of F-3s.  If the Original Poster feels that the foregoing is within his capabilities, he would be doing allright for forty bananas for the pair. 


I understand that for some, fifty apiece would be a good price for the shells alone.  It just does not work that way for me.  It would take something really unusual for me to come off fifty bananas for a shell, alone.  A B&O P-4 or P-5 or a
P&LE A-2a, maybe and I stress the maybe.  Still, I understand that not all will think similarly.
I would not have paid fifty apiece for them.  Fifty for the pair on a good day for the vendor, maybe, but I gotta' tell ya', the Saturday of that show just was not any vendor's day; Sunday weren't lookin' none too good, neither.

[peteski]

I did read what they were.  Von Ryan did state, as indeed you quote from him, that he was told (emphasis mine) that someone had remotored them.  It is from there that I draw my "somewhat less than honest" statement.  Von Ryan did state that the fifty bananas apiece that he paid was more than even the metal was worth.  He added that the decalled lettering was poorly done.  This meant that in addition to everything else that might have to be done to these things, he would need, at least, to redo the lettering.  At best, he might be able to remove the lettering without damaging the basecoat, apply a coat of glossy something, add the Microscale decals and apply a matte finish.  At worst, he might have to strip the things, repaint, add gloss, add lettering and finish with matte.

The bottom line that I drew from the Original Post was that he had paid one hundred bananas for something with which he could not do anything.  That is too much to pay.  Forty bananas for the pair, maybe.  Do the appropriate reworking and put them onto the newest B-mann, an IM or Kato chassis and have a nicely factory detailed A-B set of F-3s.  If the Original Poster feels that the foregoing is within his capabilities, he would be doing allright for forty bananas for the pair. 


I understand that for some, fifty apiece would be a good price for the shells alone.  It just does not work that way for me.  It would take something really unusual for me to come off fifty bananas for a shell, alone.  A B&O P-4 or P-5 or a
P&LE A-2a, maybe and I stress the maybe.  Still, I understand that not all will think similarly.
I would not have paid fifty apiece for them.  Fifty for the pair on a good day for the vendor, maybe, but I gotta' tell ya', the Saturday of that show just was not any vendor's day; Sunday weren't lookin' none too good, neither.

I guess we just have to agree to disagree.  Cody saw all the shortcomings of the paint job before dishing out the money.  While we still haven't yet see any photos yet, going by Cody's description, they were in fact re-motored (so the seller did not lie about that).  To me $50 a piece for these would be a reasonable price, even if they were non-working undecorated dummies.

As far as the show goes, I was there too for the convention and I have to agree that it seemed to be sparsely attended (both days).

[VonRyan]

We all should bring these lemons to Bedford this weekend. We'll have a party...

Life gave me lemons. I hate lemonade.

[peteski]

Life gave me lemons. I hate lemonade.

I like lemonade!     So, will you ever post some photos of the innards of your lemons?  We want to see all those bad seeds. 

[VonRyan]

I like lemonade!     So, will you ever post some photos of the innards of your lemons?  We want to see all those bad seeds. 

I will post some photos eventually. I'm at Bedford right now.
Perhaps Christian will chime in and post the one I sent him.

[ChristianJDavis1]

I will post some photos eventually. I'm at Bedford right now.
Perhaps Christian will chime in and post the one I sent him.

[Rossford Yard]

MRR is still a hobby of compromises.  In N, brass detail vs. plastic running quality has long been known as an issue, at least to most of us.  That said, in 1992 or so, I bought some brass locos to get SP and SF prototypes not then available in plastic.  Only ones that ran nearly as well as plastic were the Hallmark 4 axle, not six axle.  I quickly abandoned any hope of buying more brass in N.

One thing I wondered back then is if you could fit the shell on a suitable drive from Kato (or in the case of F-3, maybe IM)  I planned it out (isolation of frame halves being the big issue, with some kind of tape, maybe some grinding, maybe some clipping and cutting of tabs on the shell to make it fit) but like the OP, never quite had the guts to start the project for fear of ruining the loco.  Shouldn't have been a big deal - I still have those shelf queen brass locos.  Most of the prototypes, FP45, SD45, SD40T, SD45B, GP 60, etc. have all now been released in plastic.

The Pennsy units shown, with the antennae as signature items, are unique, so I can see the allure. That said, the rate of lemons is so low in the plastic N scale loco world, that some other work around, even custom painting/detailing the suitable F units would be cheaper than most brass.  And probably a better (albeit more expensive) solution overall.  I often find that a compromise for what I really want (signature loco) never involves cheap and more detail, quality.

[peteski]

Thanks Chris!  Now you can't say that nobody replies to your posts. 

To me the photo not-so-clearly shows those to be the older Kato motor (and worms) from early Atlas/Kato RS-11s or RS-3s.  You should be able to find Kato logos on the back of the plastic end of the engine. If the worms properly mesh with the worm gears then that is a clever (but not ideal) conversion! I prefer the motor to be separated from individually-mounted worms through a universal shaft.  Having worms directly mounted on a long motor shaft makes aligning everything difficult (especially if it is not a factory-made configuration).

Whether these run well or not, to me $50/each was a fair price. And they were re-motored (but not with Sagami), so the seller wasn't completely wrong.  But making them run well will take some serious tweaking (most likely a full rebuild of the drive train).  The recommendation of simply using a complete Kato F chassis sounds better and better.

[havingfuntoo]

I agree with you  Peteski and what is more, you have bought them from a train flea market where you take your chances on what you end up with. If you are lucky to snare a bargain you congratulate your self on the win, sure thing I can see you going back to the vendor and passing over another 50 cool ones because he under priced it, as if ........ and if you land your self a lemon tuff luck chum you will know better next time. Caveat emptor!!!