Lemon Locomotives

[Dave V]

We all should bring these lemons to Bedford this weekend. We'll have a party...

[peteski]

In hindsight, Cody could have simply taken them to a DC loop on one of the N-Trak layout and test run thhem (before buying).  I think that the dealer would have allowed that.

[mmagliaro]

Well, looking at the way those have been altered (and I agree Peteski's guess on the motors and worms),
I'm not sure I consider that an improvement.  The original Hallmark F3's had similar 5-pole straight-wound motors and they
have bearings in the frame out at the ends of the shafts, which these do not, and the way the frame has been altered,
and with the bearings long gone, it would be hard to rebuild it that way.

If it were mine, I'd snip those two gray wires, and attach my power supply and ammeter right to those (after stripping some insulation off the ends, of course), and see how much current each engine draws just as it is.

The lucky thing is, if one of those motors really is bad and that's why it's getting hot, you can get replacements for
those for 20 bucks.  Almost any standard Atlas or Kato diesel motor can be made to fit in there, and they will be better skew-wound versions.

[VonRyan]

In hindsight, Cody could have simply taken them to a DC loop on one of the N-Trak layout and test run thhem (before buying).  I think that the dealer would have allowed that.

I did test the set for a couple loops on the CNJ layout and it showed no signs of trouble.

Well, looking at the way those have been altered (and I agree Peteski's guess on the motors and worms),
I'm not sure I consider that an improvement.  The original Hallmark F3's had similar 5-pole straight-wound motors and they
have bearings in the frame out at the ends of the shafts, which these do not, and the way the frame has been altered,
and with the bearings long gone, it would be hard to rebuild it that way.

If it were mine, I'd snip those two gray wires, and attach my power supply and ammeter right to those (after stripping some insulation off the ends, of course), and see how much current each engine draws just as it is.

The lucky thing is, if one of those motors really is bad and that's why it's getting hot, you can get replacements for
those for 20 bucks.  Almost any standard Atlas or Kato diesel motor can be made to fit in there, and they will be better skew-wound versions.

I would remotor these again if I could. The motors are glued in with E6000. It's a heavy-duty glue and the only way to actually get the motors out would be a quarter-stick of dynamite.

If there was enough room, I'd install some working radiator fans to circulate the air to keep the heat down, and maybe that would keep the engine running.

[LV LOU]

http://www.ehow.com/how_7605180_remove-e6000-glue.html

[victor miranda]

yeah, kato motors.

most nearly any f unit chassis as a replacement will be an improvement.

my opinion.
to use those chassis... you will need to build wormshaft mounts and
use universal joints,  4 per chassis will handle a lot of mis-alignments.

you will have to test the motors as well.

ain't pointedly tough, but it will take determined effort.

victor

[chicken45]

I'm glad somebody got it, and I'm glad it was you!

[brokemoto]

The units appear to be painted Tuscan, the PRR passenger color.  I do not see steam generator stacks..  To be sure, they could have been left off the locomotive.  The manufacturer could have put the details into the original box, leaving them for the modeller to add.  The brass torpedo boat GP-9 that I bought was like that.  Still, I do not see them.  If the previous purchaser did change the motors, I would expect that he would have added the s/g details.

I can not quite tell from the photograph, but the fans appear to be the F-7 type, which would make this a late phase F-3.  PRR did have late phase F-3s.  Were any PRR passenger units later phase?  Were any PRR freight  F-3s painted Tuscan?  While on the subject of the Tuscan, this is a single stripe.  The MP FP-7 has a similar scheme, which is incorrect.  Did PRR have a Tuscan single stripe F-3?  I do not see any road number on either unit.

The lettering job does appear to be sloppy.  This thing might need a new paint job.  I would have paid fifty dollars the pair on a good day for the vendor.  Thirty five would have been closer to reality.   I have already stated that Saturday was not a good day for a vendor, at least where I was concerned.  Sunday weren't lookin' none too good neither.  In the end, Sunday was not too good for any vendor, as far as I was concerned, as no vendor got any of my money, Sunday:  I did not go.

[VonRyan]

Ok. So I think I'm going to just burn these and be done with them.

In all seriousness. Tomorrow I'll see about posting more photos so that I can hopefully try and figure out what is wrong with these.


As to the prototypical nature of these. I was told (not by the dealer) that the PRR didn't always run just DGLE units on freights. As for single-stripe vs. five-stripe, I have no idea and I have no idea if it is lacking any other details.

[eric220]

As to the prototypical nature of these. I was told (not by the dealer) that the PRR didn't always run just DGLE units on freights. As for single-stripe vs. five-stripe, I have no idea and I have no idea if it is lacking any other details.

One of the benefits of an alternate history with a target date of 1950: Everything is DGLE five-stripe.

[victor miranda]

Ok. So I think I'm going to just burn these and be done with them.

In all seriousness. Tomorrow I'll see about posting more photos so that I can hopefully try and figure out what is wrong with these.


As to the prototypical nature of these. I was told (not by the dealer) that the PRR didn't always run just DGLE units on freights. As for single-stripe vs. five-stripe, I have no idea and I have no idea if it is lacking any other details.

remember when I said sell the chassis to an optimist?
sell the entire set...



victor

[brokemoto]

As to the prototypical nature of these. I was told (not by the dealer) that the PRR didn't always run just DGLE units on freights. As for single-stripe vs. five-stripe, I have no idea

The statement from the person to whom you refer appears to be a hedge.  Be it steam or diesel, the railroads sometimes pressed power into service for purposes other than that for which it was designed.  Sometimes passenger power would be pressed into freight service and the other way, as well.  Some railroads had freight steam power equipped with steam lines and signalling devices to allow them to be used in passenger service, should it be necessary.  B&O Q-4 2-8-2s were an example of that.  Some railroads equipped freight steam power in a similar manner in their shops after they acquired the locomotive.  P&LE equipped some if its H-9, USRA heavy 2-8-2s in that fashion. 

When it came time for diseasels, the railroads ordered them equipped for freight or passenger service.  The freight power generally had sixty five MPH gearing and ballast for traction.  The passenger power had steam generators for heat and to work some accessories, lacked ballast (for speed) and had eighty or eighty five MPH gearing.  The builders also offered power that was designed for use in either service.  It would come with seventy MPH gearing, a smaller s/g and some ballast.

Further, as the railroads discontinued passenger trains, suddenly all of this passenger power had nothing to do.  More than one railroad began to use the passenger power for freight service.  Some roads even had it re-geared.  I do not know what PRR did with its suddenly surplus passenger power, but I would suspect that more than one passenger unit that suddenly had nothing to do did work freight.  Someone once showed me a photograph of PRR's passenger sharks on a freight train.

I asked the question about the color because some roads did paint passenger power a different color.  As a general rule, on the NYC, passenger power was grey; freight, black.  The freight cab units followed this rule without exception (at least I have never seen a photograph of a grey NYC freight cab).  The road switchers did not always follow this rule.  There were som grey GP-7 and GP-9 freight units.  There were some black GP-7 passenger units.  The ALCo passenger road switchers were always black.  When the Kato RS-2s appeared, they had passenger numbers, were grey, but lacked the s/g details.  Ir spurred quite a debate on the ya-HOO! NYCS list, as some asserted that they were incorrect, some asserted that they were correct.  I have never seen a photograph of a grey NYCS passenger ALCo road switcher.

Now to PRR.  With one or two exceptions, every photograph of a PRR passenger road switcher that I have ever seen has been DGLE.  Certain SPFs have informed me that there were a few passenger road switchers painted Tuscan, but these were few.  There were also two or three station switchers painted Tuscan.  As one poster has stated, 1950 and before, all PRR diseasels came in DGLE.  I would guess that it was after 1950 that the order came from Philadelphia to paint passenger power Tuscan.  Still, there was some PRR passenger power in DGLE long after that date (FP-7s/GG-1s).  I was curious if any freight power came in Tuscan or was so re-painted. 

Various manufacturers  offered the Mehano PRR FA-whatever in Tuscan, but I can not recall that PRR ever had any FPA-2s.  Now this brass piece appears, although it may have been repainted by a previous owner.

[LV LOU]

  Did PRR have a Tuscan single stripe F-3?  I do not see any road number on either unit.

The lettering job does appear to be sloppy.  This thing might need a new paint job.  I would have paid fifty dollars the pair on a good day for the vendor.  Thirty five would have been closer to reality.   I have already stated that Saturday was not a good day for a vendor, at least where I was concerned.  Sunday weren't lookin' none too good neither.  In the end, Sunday was not too good for any vendor, as far as I was concerned, as no vendor got any of my money, Sunday:  I did not go.

Fifty dollars? You do know junk Bachmann,Life Like,& TRIX  F units are going for 20-30 dollars now? I'd pay 100 bucks for any in one piece pair of brass locomotives,even a pair of desirable dummies.

[LV LOU]

The statement from the person to whom you refer appears to be a hedge.  Be it steam or diesel, the railroads sometimes pressed power into service for purposes other than that for which it was designed.  Sometimes passenger power would be pressed into freight service and the other way, as well.  Some railroads had freight steam power equipped with steam lines and signalling devices to allow them to be used in passenger service, should it be necessary.  B&O Q-4 2-8-2s were an example of that.  Some railroads equipped freight steam power in a similar manner in their shops after they acquired the locomotive.  P&LE equipped some if its H-9, USRA heavy 2-8-2s in that fashion. 

When it came time for diseasels, the railroads ordered them equipped for freight or passenger service.  The freight power generally had sixty five MPH gearing and ballast for traction.  The passenger power had steam generators for heat and to work some accessories, lacked ballast (for speed) and had eighty or eighty five MPH gearing.  The builders also offered power that was designed for use in either service.  It would come with seventy MPH gearing, a smaller s/g and some ballast.

Further, as the railroads discontinued passenger trains, suddenly all of this passenger power had nothing to do.  More than one railroad began to use the passenger power for freight service.  Some roads even had it re-geared.  I do not know what PRR did with its suddenly surplus passenger power, but I would suspect that more than one passenger unit that suddenly had nothing to do did work freight.  Someone once showed me a photograph of PRR's passenger sharks on a freight train.

I asked the question about the color because some roads did paint passenger power a different color.  As a general rule, on the NYC, passenger power was grey; freight, black.  The freight cab units followed this rule without exception (at least I have never seen a photograph of a grey NYC freight cab).  The road switchers did not always follow this rule.  There were som grey GP-7 and GP-9 freight units.  There were some black GP-7 passenger units.  The ALCo passenger road switchers were always black.  When the Kato RS-2s appeared, they had passenger numbers, were grey, but lacked the s/g details.  Ir spurred quite a debate on the ya-HOO! NYCS list, as some asserted that they were incorrect, some asserted that they were correct.  I have never seen a photograph of a grey NYCS passenger ALCo road switcher.

Now to PRR.  With one or two exceptions, every photograph of a PRR passenger road switcher that I have ever seen has been DGLE.  Certain SPFs have informed me that there were a few passenger road switchers painted Tuscan, but these were few.  There were also two or three station switchers painted Tuscan.  As one poster has stated, 1950 and before, all PRR diseasels came in DGLE.  I would guess that it was after 1950 that the order came from Philadelphia to paint passenger power Tuscan.  Still, there was some PRR passenger power in DGLE long after that date (FP-7s/GG-1s).  I was curious if any freight power came in Tuscan or was so re-painted. 

Various manufacturers  offered the Mehano PRR FA-whatever in Tuscan, but I can not recall that PRR ever had any FPA-2s.  Now this brass piece appears, although it may have been repainted by a previous owner.

From what I remember,PRR switched to single stripe in 1955.I'm pretty sure there were at least a few 5 stripe F units in Tuscan,but the only locomotives in Tuscan single stripe were six axle units like E7,E8,and BP20,and GG1's..

[brokemoto]

Fifty dollars? You do know junk Bachmann,Life Like,& TRIX  F units are going for 20-30 dollars now?

I have seen such price tags on HOON-kay B-mann, LL & TRIX F-units, but I refuse to pay that kind of money for that.  I have managed to get junk F-units for much less, but it is much like Filene's basement.  You rummage through junk piles at shows, but you must do with the knowledge that most of the time you will come away with nothing.  Patience does pay off; eventually you find what you like for a price that you will pay.  I do similar when looking through junk buildings at these shows.  I am not paying ten dollars for something on which  some guy went to town with the aeroplane glue.  Five, yes; I can clean it up, add some details and come out with a useful building.  Yes, people can charge what the traffic will bear, but that does not mean that I will or must pay it or even can not get away with not paying it. 

I would not pay that for new in box LL, TRIX, B-mann PLUS or the B-mann so-called "F-9".  I might pay twenty-five apiece for new-in-box or mildly used B-mann SPECTRUM F-units and would gladly pay that for the latest version of the B-mann F-7.  I have paid more for the latest B-mann F-7, in fact.  I do wish that the Washington-Baltimore area vendors had Bs, but so far no go.  I suppose that I will have to hit that B-mann guy on FeePay for the Bs.

While on the subject of the latest B-mann F-7s, there are certain vendors who sell them for sixty apiece.  Thus, for an extra twenty dollars over what some would pay for the non-functional brass, you can get a pair of good F-units, with DCC (for those who use it).  The details may need some work, but the paint jobs are pretty good.

I have a hard time paying more than a few bucks apiece for locomotives that do not run, even if they are brass.  Brass might get a few dollars more out of me, but not a whole lot. 

Brass is overpriced, as it is.  I throw no brickbats at the dealers over that; they do not get much of a break on the price.  I suspect that the profit margin is rather low on brass.