What is the Atlas "COOP" CYTX #8743 car?

[mmagliaro]

In the process of assessing and thinning my "herd", I am looking at this Atlas tank car.

Here's a quick pic swiped from an eBay listing:


What the heck is this car?  I have done some internet searching, but cannot find any prototype info on this thing.
How many gallons is it supposed to be?  Would it be appropriate to be running in the early 1950s?
It appears to be a welded car, so I would guess it's too modern.  And it just plain looks too modern.

Thanks.

[bbussey]

Good question.  It's one of the four RivaRossi-tooled late-1960s 40' chemical tanks.  Given that RR tooled the model (and offered the schemes in Europe under the RR name), it would seem that one of the four schemes is prototypical.  It isn't the DuPont scheme, as the chemical company had 8k (and less) tanks.  But one of the other three, which includes this scheme, might be accurate.

ESM commissioned RivaRossi back in the late 1980s to produce five new schemes on the model.  The scheme where the model was closest to the prototype was the UTLX, which was built in 1967.



So definitely, the model is not appropriate for settings prior to the 1960s.

[mmagliaro]

Thank you, Bryan.  That is a big help.  It matches with my intuition that the car just looked too modern.
That's very interesting info about this being from leftover Rivarossi tooling.

[bbussey]

Max, I wouldn't call it "leftover tooling" per se.  I believe the arrangement between the two companies 45 years ago was that RivaRossi was allowed to sell the products in Europe, while Atlas sold the products in North America.  The tooling included two variations of each under-carriage, one with the Atlas logo and one with the RivaRossi logo.  This covered the entire Italy-tooled product line, including the two steam engines, the two diesels, the four three-dome tanks, four of the boxcars, four of the gondolas, four of the flatcars, all of the heavyweight, smoothside and fluted passenger cars, and probably some other models that I'm forgetting.  And, of course, RivaRossi continued to sell the freight car models in Europe long after Atlas dropped them.

Talk about good tooling — those models were ahead of their time and held up well for decades.  Even today, it doesn't take much effort to bring the tank cars and the passenger cars up to current model quality.  I'll always have a soft spot for them because of the ESM connection.  We inquired back in 1988 or so if the plastic still was available for purchase, with the intent of decorating them here in the States.  But it was cost-prohibitive to import the undec models, even in bulk.  RivaRossi offered to decorate the models, for mere pennies over the undec cost, so it became affordable to pay the import fees.  Incredible that they did that, and I wish they had survived their financial troubles because they were great to work with.

[mmagliaro]

Bryan,
Duly noted.  In fact, looking at this car, I'm shocked to find out that it is 40 year old tooling.
Perhaps the brakewheel and a few other bits are a little thick, but the handrails and ladders are pretty darn good, and the tank details are very good, at least to my eye.  I will likely paint it black, weather it, and use it without trucks up on blocks in a yard
as an oil storage tank.  It's definitely worth salvaging.

[Cumbo2000]

Bryan,

I am puzzled that you placed the prototype for this tank model in 1967. I always thought this model was an N scale clone the HO scale Athearn "chemical tank car". It actually is an insulated car, but way too large. It has riveted construction for both the wrapper and and the ends so it it represents earlier construction methods.

The late Richard Hendrickson had this to say on the STMFC group in August 2011 about the Athearn tank car. The cut off date for this group is 1960 so this insulated tank car is appropriate for pre-1960.

"Athearn's so-called "chemical" tank car can be reworked to model a GATC 10,500 gal. ICC-105, but its valve casing and railed platform
are closer to O scale than HO (though Precision Scale makes a replacement part of the correct size) and other details, notably the underframe and tank bottom sheet, are crude and inaccurate. - Richard Hendrickson"

I can't recall if a suitable less crude GATC tank car underframe is available in N scale. I recall Richard did a more extensive kit-bash of the Athearn and shortened the tank body to model a smaller capacity tank car.

Bob Witt

[bbussey]

Bob,

The tankcar may be based on an earlier prototype, but the RivaRossi cars are not clones of any model Athearn tooled prior.  As with most N scale models of the time period, they were based on "modern" or common prototypes currently on the rails.  The Athearn model also is shorter in scale length, from what I recall. 

[wcfn100]

From what I see, the only thing that date's this car to the mid-50's is the vertical break wheel (which was around before then, just not very common).  Otherwise, you could go back as far as the mid-40's with it.

As for calling it a welded car, I don't know.  You can clearly see rivets on the body of the car.  I think insulated jacket which is welded my be deceiving in this regard.

Jason

[mmagliaro]

I don't see how the vertical brake wheel dates this car.   I have looked at a lot of tank car photos from the 20s, 30s, 40s, and many of them have vertical brake wheels, in fact, nearly all of them.  The IM 8,000 gal car I just built has one as well, and that's a very old prototype.

[wcfn100]

I don't see how the vertical brake wheel dates this car.   I have looked at a lot of tank car photos from the 20s, 30s, 40s, and many of them have vertical brake wheels, in fact, nearly all of them.  The IM 8,000 gal car I just built has one as well, and that's a very old prototype.

We're just mixing terminology.  What you're calling a vertical brake wheel I refer to as a horizontal brake wheel or vertical brake staff.



Jason

[mmagliaro]

We're just mixing terminology.  What you're calling a vertical brake wheel I refer to as a horizontal brake wheel or vertical brake staff.



Jason

Ha ha ha!  Yes..  NOW I get it.  Thanks!   Yes, this COOP car has a vertical WHEEL, whereas the older cars I am looking at
have a vertical STAFF with a horizontal wheel.  Thank you for pointing this out.  Yep.  Another indicator that this car is too modern.

[garethashenden]

Good question.  It's one of the four RivaRossi-tooled late-1960s 40' chemical tanks.  Given that RR tooled the model (and offered the schemes in Europe under the RR name), it would seem that one of the four schemes is prototypical.  It isn't the DuPont scheme, as the chemical company had 8k (and less) tanks.  But one of the other three, which includes this scheme, might be accurate.

ESM commissioned RivaRossi back in the late 1980s to produce five new schemes on the model.  The scheme where the model was closest to the prototype was the UTLX, which was built in 1967.



So definitely, the model is not appropriate for settings prior to the 1960s.

Just came across this. Looks like a very similar car although I can't make out the number. http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=2610132

[JMaurer1]

Of course a quick trip to Spookshows website says:

I'm not sure what exact prototype this car might be based on, but it looks a bit like the ACF 10,500 gallon high-pressure cars used during the early 40s. The narrow dome (or manway) identifies it as a chemical (as opposed to petroleum product) tank car. Cars such as these were used to transport pressurized liquids (LPG, chlorine, etc). The "outside" of the car is actually a metal shell which insulates the actual tank within.

There are a bunch of similar cars to this made by...everyone apparently. Bachmann, Roco, AMC, Mehano, Model Power (although MP's car has external rivets on the tanks sides). I've always considered theses cars as being from the late '40s and it looks like most references place them at that time frame as well. Vert brakewheels, Bentendorf trucks (which car builders stopped using in the early 1960's), the underframe (frameless tank cars were becoming common in the 1060's), and the cars 40' length all seem to indicate the same thing. 50' freight cars of all types began becoming commonplace in the 1950's and by the 1960's tanks were usually 50 or longer, without a underframe (frameless), and were riding on roller bearing trucks.

[sirenwerks]

One of the nice features of this car that sets it above more modern tooling is the fineness of the insulating jacket at the ends.  Its thinness, or lack of thickness, exceeds the quality of latter cars, such as Atlas's own similar but more recent release,  the 11K tank.  Don't get me wrong, I am thankful for Atlas's newest tank car offerings.  But compared to the model being discussed Atlas's newer cars are pretty 'thick' and clumsy around the ends and seams.

[Denver Road Doug]

The scheme where the model was closest to the prototype was the UTLX, which was built in 1967.

So you're saying BUILT in 67 right?    So this thing could have been around in the 90's?   2000's?  I saw cars all the time that look like they're 200 years old is why I'm asking.