Author Topic: Solid or stranded ??  (Read 6710 times)

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mmagliaro

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Re: Solid or stranded ??
« Reply #15 on: March 12, 2014, 03:42:24 AM »
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Interesting to see so many people using #22 wire... I've never used anything larger than #24 and generally prefer stranded on the modular layout.

I found a bunch of it cheap.   :D
Otherwise, it could just as well have been #24.   #20 starts getting a little heavy to solder to the rail.

Zox:  YES!  Code 80 rail makes a huge difference.   My first N layouts were code 80, and I never had the problem,
and I actually had NO feeders except one main one from the throttle, and wires to go to selectable blocks.
When I built my first code 55 layout, I did the same thing, and wow.  That's when I had the voltage-drop issues.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2014, 03:44:51 AM by mmagliaro »

Ian MacMillan

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Re: Solid or stranded ??
« Reply #16 on: March 12, 2014, 07:43:45 AM »
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I use 14/2 red/black stranded for track buss 22 solid for feeders on every track section. 22 solid green for frogs.
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soo

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Re: Solid or stranded ??
« Reply #17 on: March 12, 2014, 10:09:56 AM »
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Black/red 22 AWG solid.  I also attach a feeder to all rail sections.  I also change colors when making a new block/ protection circuit, To make trouble shooting easier.

  I also use terminal strips, I run 18AWG from buss to terminal strip, then the 22AWG from the track to strip. I know it seems overkill, but I CAN NOT stand 3M scotchlocks.

just my opinion.

  Wyatt

peteski

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Re: Solid or stranded ??
« Reply #18 on: March 12, 2014, 11:33:01 AM »
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I use 14/2 red/black stranded for track buss 22 solid for feeders on every track section. 22 solid green for frogs.

LOL Ian!  Buss means "a kiss", or a Buss is also a brand name of an electrical fuse.

Bus (one "s") is either a road vehicle or one or more electrical conductors carrying electricity.  I don't knwo why people think that they need to use 2 esses when describing the electrical bus.  Makes me want to roll my eyes.
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soo

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Re: Solid or stranded ??
« Reply #19 on: March 12, 2014, 11:49:48 AM »
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Peteski,, shoot me I did made a typo,,, so I guess you could call me a dupayash.

Wyatt

alhoop

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Re: Solid or stranded ??
« Reply #20 on: March 12, 2014, 12:48:17 PM »
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Solid #26 magnet wire here. Good for 2.2 amps. Stranded is only needed if the wire is subject to flexing. Isn't it hard to solder stranded wire to the rails?
Al
« Last Edit: March 13, 2014, 09:02:18 AM by alhoop »

peteski

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Re: Solid or stranded ??
« Reply #21 on: March 12, 2014, 01:57:24 PM »
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Peteski,, shoot me I did made a typo,,, so I guess you could call me a dupayash.

Wyatt

No problem - I just pointed out a mistake, and explained the meanings of each. If it was a simple typo, then no problem. But do I see many people using "buss" to describe the wiring under their layout. If left uncorrected, there will soon be lots of kissing under the layout.  :D
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rsn48

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Re: Solid or stranded ??
« Reply #22 on: March 12, 2014, 01:57:55 PM »
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Is it harder to solder stranded to the rails, well no because you tinned the end first.  And an idea I saw somewhere but can't remember where, if you get a piece of wood strip, drill lets say 15 holes in it to slide feeder wires through so there is about an inch and a half sticking through, you can twist and tin stranded wires in bulk instead of doing one or two at a time.

Stranded or solid in my experience has been one of those religious questions in the hobby with many believers on either side.  I use 22 stranded because that is what my local model railroad retailer pushes, flexibile issues are only limited to bridges that rise and duck under ramps that move some how.

Length of feeders, this is bordering on religion as well.  I grabbed this chart off of Tony's Trains, is shows how many feet to get a 1/2 volt drop in power:

wire size          1          2          5          10 (amps)

8                      796      398      159      80

10                   501       250       100     50

12                   314       157         63     31

14                   198        99          40     20

16                   124        62          25    12

18                     78        39          16      8 

20                     50        25           10     5

So feeders which are 22 gauge can be longer than 6 inches ( I see this figure quoted frequently)
Hind sight is always better than foresight, except for lost opportunity costs.

Denver Road Doug

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Re: Solid or stranded ??
« Reply #23 on: March 12, 2014, 01:59:55 PM »
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Stranded is only needed if the wire is subject to flexing.


I use red/black 22-24ga stranded for the feeders just because of this.  Seems to me that feeders are going to be more prone to being kinked or flexed and I read somewhere the logic of using stranded for feeders based on this.  I used to use solid though.  I'm not sure I have a strong allegiance either way to be honest.

I always used stranded for bus wires as that's what I had seen in various mags, but that seems counter-intuitive to me given they hardly flex at all.  So, dunno.  I don't really use bus wires anymore since I'm wiring for detection/signalling and it basically means you wire "old school" with homeruns back to the more centralized "block" control.  (maybe not as centralized as that, but still the gist is there aren't really bus wires)   Given the short runs I just tie all the feeders together and solder to a larger (14-18ga) homerun wire.

Quote
Isn't it hard to solder stranded wire to the rails?

I found it more difficult to solder solid wire.  Stranded can "flatten out" giving more surface area and the web of smaller wires takes the solder better and forms an interlocked weave of solder.  I would always crimp solid and bend it to solder to c55 track and I always worried about creating cracks in the wire that typically lead to failure.   I don't know if I should worry about that or not, but that--plus the above--is why I used stranded for feeders.
NOTE: I'm no longer active on this forum.   If you need to contact me, use the e-mail address (or visit the website link) attached to this username.  Thanks.

Sokramiketes

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Re: Solid or stranded ??
« Reply #24 on: March 12, 2014, 02:36:03 PM »
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Solid magnet wire here. Stranded is only needed if the wire is subject to flexing. Isn't it hard to solder stranded wire to the rails?
Al

Once tinned, it's not that much different to solder to the rails than solid.  Since our modules spend a lot of time bouncing around in a trailer, it just seems more appropriate to use.  Maybe I'm being too cautious.

While we're talking about wiring, remember that wire is cheap and keeping everything cleanly installed is important!  I like the Panduit clips for cable ties.  I can route a wire, and then as I add more to the bundle I just clip off the old cable tie and put a new one around the fatter group.  Here's a slide covering our parts that shows the clips in question:


And the end result with a little planning and properly tied wiring:

peteski

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Re: Solid or stranded ??
« Reply #25 on: March 12, 2014, 02:47:43 PM »
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What? No rat's nest under your modules Mike?  You are taking away hours of possible electrical troubleshooting fun!  That is my favorite part of setting up an N-Trak layout - someone participating in the layout with a rat's nest of wiring, whose module is causing a problem, and without which we cannot have a running layout. Oh joy!  :trollface:
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Kisatchie

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Re: Solid or stranded ??
« Reply #26 on: March 12, 2014, 02:51:06 PM »
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I see that Atlas sells 20 gauge stranded wire for layouts:

http://www.modeltrainstuff.com/Atlas-315-50-Black-20-Gauge-Stranded-Layout-Wire-p/atl-315.htm

Anyone use it?


Hmm... I have my whole
tree house wired with it...


Two scientists create a teleportation ray, and they try it out on a cricket. They put the cricket on one of the two teleportation pads in the room, and they turn the ray on.
The cricket jumps across the room onto the other pad.
"It works! It works!"

Sokramiketes

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Re: Solid or stranded ??
« Reply #27 on: March 12, 2014, 03:42:01 PM »
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What? No rat's nest under your modules Mike?  You are taking away hours of possible electrical troubleshooting fun!  That is my favorite part of setting up an N-Trak layout - someone participating in the layout with a rat's nest of wiring, whose module is causing a problem, and without which we cannot have a running layout. Oh joy!  :trollface:

LOL.  I don't ever want to go back to those days.  I've run into one or two things that have popped up now that we're installing signals, but nothing that's been mission critical.  Most signal glitches are just in the logic, and don't keep the trains from running!

robert3985

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Re: Solid or stranded ??
« Reply #28 on: March 12, 2014, 07:46:53 PM »
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Coupla things.  Nickel Silver is a notoriously bad conductor.  It has lots of resistance and is used in some instances for heating elements because of its high resistance.  Brass is a much better conductor and way back when, when I started in HO scale (like in 1963???) my old brass track ran just fine without a lot of constant cleaning.  However NS looks better, solders just as easy and (I really don't know if this is just hype but we've all heard it) the oxidation is conductive.  Supposedly, we should be cleaning our track a LOT less if we used NS rails and not brass rails.  However, that's a moot point since I am not aware of any brass N-scale track out there, so we're stuck with either NS or stainless steel if you count Arnold/Hornby track.

I have never constructed a layout for myself using code 80 track.  I've used ME code 70, with code 55 sidings and industrial areas, but those old Ntrak modules are long gone, and my layout/module construction has used code 55 and code 40 rails for over 20 years.

On some of my very early wiring using 55 and 40 rails, I soldered all my joiners and assumed that current would be sufficient to run my engines, but using phone wire (Probably 30AWG) on the module ends (soldering to PCB ties at the modules' ends) proved to be bad practice with everybody's trains noticeably slowing when going through those sections.

I also had a LOT of problems with broken rail joiners (all soldered) especially on the hand laid code 40 tracks which represented light and medium duty trackage with ties further apart than the ME code 55 mainlines.  I suppose this caused more flex on the rail joiners when cleaning with a Bright Boy even when mounted on cork roadbed, which then caused oxidation at the soldered joints and eventual failure.  I tried just butting the code 40 rails together on a PCB tie and soldering them all together, but that didn't work well either.

Plus, the modules/sections were wired by at least four different individuals and although they worked okay in DC, whenever there was a problem, it was a Chinese puzzle crossed with a Gordian knot all made into a big rat's nest and took an inordinate amount of time to solve problems.

When I finally decided to go with DCC five or six years ago, I was determined to rip out ALL of my old wiring and toss it in the trash, other than my DC Tortoise leads, which is what I did.

I did a lot of study about it, and since my layout will fill a 40' X 40' space when complete and have a couple of hundred feet of mainline running, I thought I'd wire it very closely to Ntrak's DCC wiring standards since they are always running BIG layouts.

I've never liked terminal strips because of the time factor and they're just another non-soldered screwed joint to loosen up or corrode over the years so I used as few of them as possible, and instead used what I term "Sub-buses" to connect my short rail feeders to, which then get attached to my main power buses.

I decided to use Ntrak's recommended 12AWG wire for the main power bus wires and on further recommendation, I found high purity, low-oxygen, fine stranded 12AWG speaker wire in a Black/Red Zip configuration for a helluva deal on eBay.  Had to buy 600 feet of it however, but I'll have to buy more before I complete my layout.

The sub-buses are also lo-ox, high purity 14AWG stranded wire, which my solid core 22AWG rail feeder get directly attached to.

Since I can run the sub-buses directly under the mainlines, my 6" feeder length is long enough for me to put an "S" curve into each feeder as added insurance against pulling off one of them during transportation.

I mark which power district the feeder are attached to up above by sticking a short piece of vinyl electricians tape near the feeders in the appropriate colors.

Contrary to another opinion on this thread, I LOVE genuine 3M Scotch Lock IDC Suitcase connectors, and after a bit of research, I now know why they are used extensively in the automotive industry...they don't corrode (the metal "displacement" blade is a special alloy that discourages oxidation), they're quick, they're reliable (if the correct size and style are used), they're removable, and they instantly insulate each joint...and they're cheap if you shop rather than buying them from Micro Mark or Radio Shack or Lowe's or The Home Depot.

Here's a photo of my new high-speed/low-drag DCC wiring in an upskirt shot of one of my Echo Yard sections, illustrating the above points graphically:


I also run a 12VDC 14AWG speaker wire bus to power the Tortoises and my Digitrax UP-5 plug-in/Loconet panels.

To alleviate any problems I've had in the past due to oxidized soldered railjoiners or broken butt joints over PCB ties, I elected to put a feeder on EVERY STEENKING PIECE OF RAIL, which so far (in five years) has worked out GREAT for me and my son.  I wish I'd done it decades ago as we simply do not have electrical problems any more making a section of rail dead.

So, as to 22AWG feeders working okay if they're longer than 6"...yup, that's probably true up to a point, but as my rule of thumb goes, mine always are no longer than 6" because of my sub-bus protocol which they all get attached to instead of a centrally located terminal block, which I've eliminated.

My philosophy is "Make your wires thick enough so that you KNOW you're not going to have problems" rather than push the limits.  Just use bigger wire than you really need, or fine wire in shorter lengths than will cause problems rather than pushing the limits.  So far, this philosophy has worked really well.

As to whether to use stranded wire for feeders or not, my choice of solid wire is because it solders up quicker for me using my resistance solderer and offers way fewer nooks and crannies to encourage corrosion in the hostile environment of model railroad rails.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2014, 08:02:02 PM by robert3985 »

Sokramiketes

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Re: Solid or stranded ??
« Reply #29 on: March 12, 2014, 08:35:16 PM »
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If you look at the underside shot of the depot module above, you'll notice a very similar methodology of a sub-bus. The bundle along the top is the main layout bus wiring. Then the terminal block, which aids trouble shooting without clipping wires. Then off the terminal block come the sub-bus wiring which leads to all the individual feeders.

It's funny what concerns whom, you don't want mechanical terminal blocks but are ok with scotch locks. I am anal about soldering and shrink wrapping every connection but then use terminal blocks. My other bad practice is the jumpers between modules. I hate wiring that hangs down during transport, and don't want to have to tie up the ends. So I leave it short and put female plugs on each end of the module. Then I make one foot long jumpers with two male ends. Twice as many electrical connectors as needed, but I love pulling the jumpers off and tossing them in a bag, never to get snagged during transport.