The Bachmann NW-2

[Puddington]

I think the "proportions" argument is entirely separate from the "artistic" elements of rendering small details.  I expect proper proportions and major dimensions.  I also expect my brick walls to have tooled mortar lines and my walkways to have tread plate detail.

Even if the prototype didn't ? GMD-1's almost exclusively used a high skid resistance surface on walkways as opposed to traditional tread plate so.....

But to your point: I guess we manufacturers are supposed to guess when it's ok to violate some modellers demand for prototypical fidelity for the sake of artistic appearance and when it's time to stick to the facts...? Do you know why company's don't openly ask for modeller input..... Because ask three modellers for an opinion and you get seven "absolute facts", nine "must haves" twenty two "won't buy it withouts" all if which conflict with one another.....

If you expect tread plate don't waste your money on our not yet officially announced model.

[bbussey]

I don't understand the frustration with what in essence are "entry level" products.  We all know this prior to products being released.  If it's Bachmann and not the Spectrum product line, consider it entry level.  If it's Atlas and it's the Trainman line, consider it entry level.  There are more accurate and better detailed alternatives to both the Bachmann NW2 and the Bachmann GP7.  There also are Atlas-made high-end equivalents to a number of Atlas Trainman items.  I fail to see the point of ripping the Bachmann NW2.  It's good for the purpose it serves, which is to get more people into the hobby at the higher level of operations technology at less cost.  Why is that a bad thing?

If you want a better-looking NW2, buy the Kato unit and the appropriate decoder.  The Bachmann GP7 has the same level of detail and accuracy, and the Atlas version is the superior model in every aspect, yet this type of nonsense didn't pop up then.  Why now, on this model?

[bbussey]

Bachmann also is the only manufacturer offering new high-end steam locomotive models regularly.  If putting out entry level diesels and switchers helps finance the release of esoteric high-end steam, I'd count my blessings and say thanks.  Just as the regular stream of fantasy scheme releases helps finance new tooling at Micro-Trains.

[DKS]

I guess we manufacturers are supposed to guess when it's ok to violate some modellers demand for prototypical fidelity for the sake of artistic appearance and when it's time to stick to the facts...? Do you know why company's don't openly ask for modeller input..... Because ask three modellers for an opinion and you get seven "absolute facts", nine "must haves" twenty two "won't buy it withouts" all if which conflict with one another...

I don't understand the frustration with what in essence are "entry level" products.  We all know this prior to products being released.  If it's Bachmann and not the Spectrum product line, consider it entry level.  If it's Atlas and it's the Trainman line, consider it entry level. [snip]  I fail to see the point of ripping the Bachmann NW2.  It's good for the purpose it serves, which is to get more people into the hobby at the higher level of operations technology at less cost.  Why is that a bad thing?

Here are two very valid observations that I hope sink in (but I'm not holding my breath).

Critical assessment of models is never a bad thing... except when it's phrased in the style of the original post, which is laden with sarcasm toward the manufacturer, and at the same time manages to make anyone who dares to purchase it feel inferior or guilty. Unfortunately, the other problem with critical assessment is that it brings bashers out of the woodwork, which causes things to spiral downward into personal attacks.

I'm really, really hopeful this thread dies quickly. The points on the product have been made, and I'm not seeing much purpose in dragging it out any further.

[wcfn100]

I don't understand the frustration with what in essence are "entry level" products.

I don't have any frustration with the products.  We need entry lever stuff and Bachmann is certainly the one to do them.  My frustration is being labeled some sort of elitist just because I don't think any of the Bachmann models are very good.  They aren't very good.  I can go one by one and show that none of them compare very well to the prototype or other like models.

There's nothing wrong with this.  And Bachmann has really improved the running characteristics which will ultimately help the hobby with people starting out.

But the detailing on Bachmann diesels has always been sub-par.  Nothing has changed.  Why all of a sudden is it a major affront to point this out.

The answer is money right?  When Bachmann engines were $40 it was easy to point fingers and scoff.  Now were at $140 retail, it's not so funny anymore. 

Jason

[DKS]

My frustration is being labeled some sort of elitist just because I don't think any of the Bachmann models are very good.

You're not really improving the situation with this thread; if anything, just the opposite.

[wcfn100]

Here are two very valid observations that I hope sink in (but I'm not holding my breath).

Critical assessment of models is never a bad thing... except when it's phrased in the style of the original post, which is laden with sarcasm toward the manufacturer,

Not towards the manufacturer, towards those who think it's unreasonable to expect better models from manufacturers.  And that I'm just bashing for the sake of bashing which is never the case.

and at the same time manages to make anyone who dares to purchase it feel inferior or guilty.

You've assumed that more than once from my posts and have always been wrong.  I have NEVER suggested or implied that anyone is inferior in any way because they don't agree with me or do things 'my way'.  Everyone should do what makes them happy (that includes me BTW).   But I do have more respect for those who set higher standards because I know how hard it is, manufacturers included.

You can delete this whole thread if you want, I said what I needed to say in response to the personal remarks made towards me.

It's all good as far as I'm concerned.

Jason

[DKS]

Not towards the manufacturer...

It wouldn't take any more effort to get it right would it?  Would it?  Bachmann's using computers right?

Sure sounds like you're taking a crack at Bachmann to me...

You've assumed that more than once from my posts and have always been wrong.  I have NEVER suggested or implied that anyone is inferior in any way because they don't agree with me or do things 'my way'.

I apologize for making assumptions, but I must note that your tone is really the culprit here, regardless of whether or not it's intentional, and I am not alone in this position. Lines like this don't help:

How many small errors, omissions and compromises does it take to finally get people's attention?  What if it had no doors?  Would that do it? 

No one has formed any opinions of your attitude in a vacuum; that is to say, you've earned your reputation as an 'elitist' all on your own.

[wcfn100]

I apologize for making assumptions, but I must note that your tone is really the culprit here, regardless of whether or not it's intentional, and I am not alone in this position. No one has formed any opinions of your attitude in a vacuum.

More smileys maybe?   

And my opinion in this case isn't in a vacuum true, but it also isn't self righteous.  I am actually concerned that after so many years of moving forward we are starting to go back, and if no one says something we will get to a point where a lot more people are unhappy.  But by then it will be too late and we're going to have a period here of really mediocre models while the general population catches up to what happened and takes notice.

I know no one has appointed me prototype police and it's pretty presumptuous for me to try and assume the role (if that's what I'm doing), but no one else seems to care so sometimes I feel like I have to says something if just to wake one person up.

Jason

[towl1996]

I think this thread has/had merit. I appreciate when someone takes the time to point out differences between the model and the prototype, whether it's "entry level" or "top shelf", Kato or Bachmann. There is/can be an educational component to this type of comparative analysis.

Agendas, motives, and personal attacks can be ignored.

[milw12]

With all due respect to all parties here, but I have re-read the first post a few times now, and have found nothing but valid points.

Discussion such as the original intention of this one are invaluable to the modelling community. It's less about complaining and more about the sharing of knowledge, acknowledging the shortcomings of the stock model and what can be done to make it better. But it's hard to sugarcoat things that are wrong, it's the nature of the beast.

What confuses me more are the people who are personally insulted by the criticism of a product not their own. Anything done publicly can, and will be judged. In art classes an individual's work is always put up for critique, if only for the benefit of the original artist. So why does this not apply to models as well? Asking the question why something was or was not done and expecting a reasoned answer is not an insult by any means. This kind of discourse is strictly constructive criticism, not personal affronts.

I am in full agreement with Jason on this. We, as N-Scale consumers, should demand the best to push the hobby forward. It is absurd to expect 100% accuracy on any model product, and there will always be a place for entry-level models, but we can push manufactures to at least attempt such endeavors rather than mindlessly accepting what they deem "good enough." Especially given the technology we have today, and the bar set by companies like BLMA, ESM, Fox Valley, Bluford and more we know exactly what can be achieved.

What I'm getting at is that criticism by nature can never be truly sugarcoated and sweet, but it can be constructive if there is a higher goal. As members of the Railwire we should all know and understand this, it's what brought me here in the first place and why this is the only model railroading forum I frequent.

Respectfully,
Lucas

[bbussey]

I don't have any frustration with the products.  We need entry lever stuff and Bachmann is certainly the one to do them.  My frustration is being labeled some sort of elitist just because I don't think any of the Bachmann models are very good.  They aren't very good.  I can go one by one and show that none of them compare very well to the prototype or other like models.

There's nothing wrong with this.  And Bachmann has really improved the running characteristics which will ultimately help the hobby with people starting out.

But the detailing on Bachmann diesels has always been sub-par.  Nothing has changed.  Why all of a sudden is it a major affront to point this out.

The answer is money right?  When Bachmann engines were $40 it was easy to point fingers and scoff.  Now were at $140 retail, it's not so funny anymore. 

Your belief that the fidelity-to-the-prototype is poor (which is what I believe you are addressing and not lumping in the operational performance that your posts imply) is still subjective.  And it appears you are referring to diesel models only, rather than all Bachmann models at large which again is what your statements imply.  It's not an affront to express your beliefs that the details of Bachmann diesels are not at a level of other manufacturers.  But, everything is relative, including the target audience for the product and the price of the product.  The Railwire crowd clearly is not the target audience for non-Spectrum or Trainman products.  And when comparing apples-to-apples, that $140 retail for a DCC-equipped model is less than what it would cost you to buy an equivalent DCC-ready model from another manufacturer, a decoder, and the time/investment to install the decoder — let alone buying a DCC-equipped model from another manufacturer.  So your criticism of the MSRP when it is the least-costly option to obtain a DCC-equipped switcher isn't valid.

[bbussey]

...  I am actually concerned that after so many years of moving forward we are starting to go back, and if no one says something we will get to a point where a lot more people are unhappy.  But by then it will be too late and we're going to have a period here of really mediocre models while the general population catches up to what happened and takes notice.

I know no one has appointed me prototype police and it's pretty presumptuous for me to try and assume the role (if that's what I'm doing), but no one else seems to care so sometimes I feel like I have to says something if just to wake one person up.

I think your fears are unfounded.  Even with any shortcomings observed with the NW2, it's clear that Bachmann has stepped-up its efforts in a huge way, which you've even noted in this thread.  I truly believe you have to look at the higher-end product lines to see if there is more evidence to support your unease, and I don't think you will find anything.  Does it cost more to be more accurate?  Yeah, it does in the form of R&D, which then increases the MSRP.  If the purpose is to create an affordable entry-level DCC-equipped item to draw in more new modelers to the hobby (i.e. new customers), that's an issue.  I'm not saying I agree with it, but I do see the logic.  However, if you look at everything Bachmann has implemented in recent years regarding the design of their higher-end models, it's difficult to believe they are sliding backwards.

[Robbman]

You can delete this whole thread if you want
Jason

Hopefully he won't.  Conflict of interest, et al.

[Puddington]

Bryan is right and we haven't even touched on the improved running qualities of the new Bachmann products. Their new motor/dcc system/drive train/gear tower provides outstanding slow speed control; far superior to anyone elses right now. Having done rather exhausting testing very recently on slow speed motor control of a number of new models and industry standard units I can say without a doubt that Bachmann is providing an excellent product with regard to the "guts" of their N scale locomotives. I accept the questions being asked about their power pick up system and agree that it could be improved but time will only tell if it's problematic.

I am very impressed with their running qualities; especially at their price point DCC equipped.