How to repeat PL's on the facia without breaking the bank

[eric220]

I did some playing around with different arrangements for a four-track and two-track signal bridge using my repeaters.  Here's what I came up with.  In this first illustration, the left represents what I initially had in mind.  (Edit: I noticed that the four-track measurement is off.  It should be 2.78".)  The right would be a redesign with a V shaped front so that one set of aspects shows to the left, and one to the right.



The left here represents the horizontal orientation, which has the benefit of being the narrowest four-track arrangement.  Unfortunately, it's the widest two-track arrangement (funny thing, they're the same width).  If you discount the legibility issues that Rich brings up (and with which I agree) I like this arrangement the best.  With those issues in mind, combined with the fact that they look a lot less like cab signals, I'm not inclined to go that route.  The right is a similar arrangement to the V shaped version, but with two individual flat signals.



What's becoming clear is that at 1.5" tall, these things are big in the context of making facia control panels.  I could always design a version that uses 3mm LEDs, but as Peteski pointed out, the aspects are already pretty small with the current 5mm version.

[peteski]

How about trying my suggestion to just make the miniature functional PL heads using 3mm (or smaller) LEDs?

[eric220]

Peteski - In short, that's an option, but I'm exploring a different, much simpler and cheaper to construct option right now.  I might look into the PL option at some point in the future, but I'm not convinced that I can make it any smaller than the cab signal version.

Here's another alignment thought.

[peteski]

My personal view on this is that while your versions are cool and they look like the PRR cab signals, they result in very confusing and busy looking track plan.  you could give more separation to the tracks in the diagram but that to me would also look weird (and probably take up too much real estate on the control panel)

[Dave V]

Or...  we could give props to Eric for upping his game to SPF Level = Maximum.  I love it.  These are exactly the cab signal indications real Pennsy engineers would see.

Peteski, he's made up his mind...  That he didn't take your suggestion doesn't mean he doesn't understand or he thinks you're wrong, just that he wants to do it this way.

[peteski]

Or...  we could give props to Eric for upping his game to SPF Level = Maximum.  I love it.  These are exactly the cab signal indications real Pennsy engineers would see.

Peteski, he's made up his mind...  That he didn't take your suggestion doesn't mean he doesn't understand or he thinks you're wrong, just that he wants to do it this way.

That's fine Dr. Vollmer, but these aren't located in a simulated locomotive cab from which the SPF model engineer is driving a train; These signals are sitting on the control panel of a model train layout.

I provided my opinion because Eric stated "Peteski - In short, that's an option...".  Isn't providing alternative opinions something that a forum is for?  But since I've been put in my place by you - I will not post any more in this thread.   

[eric220]

you could give more separation to the tracks in the diagram but that to me would also look weird (and probably take up too much real estate on the control panel)

Bingo.  As it is, I'm  thinking about compressing the tracks closer together.  Here's the main issue with the reproduced PL's: orientation.  Right now, I've got the PL's knocked on their sides in JMRI.  It's a little confusing, but it's the only way I can fit them.  If I reproduce them on the panels, how do I do it?

These PL's are made with 3mm LEDs.  These are just sketches, and I don't know if the LEDs can actually get that close together without fouling each other.  The left doesn't need much explanation.  The right is similar to how the aspects appear on my JMRI panel.  The cab signal in the middle is to demonstrate scale.

[eric220]

Wow, controversy in one of my threads!  I've arrived.   

To be clear, my mind is not necessarily made up, but I would like to explore the cab signal option as far as possible.  It strikes me as the simplest way to replicate the PL's on the facia from a construction and expense standpoint (remember, I'm looking at 100+ of these things).  All other considerations aside, I'd love to replicate the aspects with full PL's on the facia.  Unfortunately, there are other considerations, like complexity and expense.  Also a consideration are my gandy dancers.  I am by far the youngest, and not all of them have the best grasp of electronics.  The cab signal version requires a minimal understanding of electronics to assemble, and is an easy project that I'm comfortable handing off.  A full PL aspect would require assembling diode trees to power the center lamp.  Not complicated for me, but time consuming, and too complicated to ask of the gandy dancers.  The cab signal version solves many problems, so I really want to evaluate its feasibility.  I'm open to the idea that in the end it might not work the way I want it to, but it's still worth investigating.

[Dave V]

No controversy, just...  Whatever that was.

I was merely voicing my support for you descision.  Frankly it's unique and very proto-inspired.

[VonRyan]

The Cab Signal idea is genius.
I'm following with much interest.

-Cody F.

[TiVoPrince]

Wondering
if a better solution would be to use a smartphone/tablet app to reproduce the cab signals in the operators hand?  Eliminates the confusion of a 'signal jungle' on the fascia and extends the 'throttle as a cab' metaphor by combining things that you expect to find there...

[eric220]

Wondering
if a better solution would be to use a smartphone/tablet app to reproduce the cab signals in the operators hand?  Eliminates the confusion of a 'signal jungle' on the fascia and extends the 'throttle as a cab' metaphor by combining things that you expect to find there...

I've thought about how to implement that. The major stumbling blocks are that there's no iOS or Droid app for JMRI, nor is there one in development. As far as I know, WiThrottle has no ability to display cab signals. Add to that, I can communicate to JMRI a train's identity or its location, but I have no way of tying that information together. I'm not using Digitrax block detectors on most of the layout, so transponding is out. In short, I'm not sure how to collect all the needed information from the layout, nor how to drive the display once I have it.

[wm3798]

...but when are you going to start making trees?

[Philip H]

...but when are you going to start making trees?

You forget good sir - he's geographically close enough to MC to contract the tree work for repetative cases of craft beverages and periodic fresh Dungeness crabs.

Eric,
Reading all this over, I'm struck by a juxtaposition - you are pursuing this approach because of "simplicity" and ease of implementation (as opposed to diode trees and round LED holders), but the track schematics are awash in repeaters - and look none too simple to me.  What am I missing, aside from your desire to farm assembly work to your track gang?

[TiVoPrince]

I've thought about how to implement that. The major stumbling blocks are that there's no iOS or Droid app for JMRI, nor is there one in development. As far as I know, WiThrottle has no ability to display cab signals. Add to that, I can communicate to JMRI a train's identity or its location, but I have no way of tying that information together. I'm not using Digitrax block detectors on most of the layout, so transponding is out. In short, I'm not sure how to collect all the needed information from the layout, nor how to drive the display once I have it.

Don't
believe that Android Engine Driver has that function either.  Although it would be a cool implementation.

JMRI Panel Pro can display graphics on the PC screen based on logic so I wonder if it is possible.  You may have to invest in more detection logic to make stuff work because you would need to resolve and display the cab signal for a location rater than the static nature of Panel Pro that deals in fixed locations in its logic. 

This could be applicable to all signaled railways by using coloured aspect graphics rather than position lights...