What are the best materials for supporting a foam based layout.

[OldEastRR]

 

as a scenery base on my "battleship" L-girder portable sections/modules

I like that term. It may be time for model RR benchwork to be defined as descriptively as the term "battleship construction". We have distinctions like foam or plaster scenery, Homasote or cork roadbed, Code 40/55/80, of course the scales themselves, and the eras -- why don't we have different names for different types of benchwork? Obviously, as this thread shows, there are vast differences across the board.
Differentiating between types of benchwork would help people who are both looking for or giving advice (this would not be confused with being portable, permanent, modular or sectional -- but just how the working part of the layout is supported). To have  subgroups of types would be as helpful as indicating whether a person is looking for DC or DCC advice. And, to keep it all railroady, I suggest the conventions be "Heavyweight" and "Lightweight" benchwork.
"Heavyweight" is, obviously, a framework mainly of dimensional lumber and/or plywood for framing--the subtypes being open-grid, L-girder, and solid table (which would include Spookshow's). Optionally, a heavyweight type could include wooden cross bracing and risers, cookie-cutter or spline roadbed, wooden supports for backdrops and scenic dividers, wood/masonite fascia, and plywood bases for yards, towns, and other flat areas.
"Lightweight" would be layouts built primarily of extruded foam whole sheets and pieces, with the option of a few small-dimension wood pieces or laminated foam "beams" for undersupport. The construction includes things like the Woodland Scenic foam "Incline" sets, those snaky, segmented foam grades, or similar products. Narrow strips of Masonite or thin plywood running along the bottom of the foam sheets to fasten wiring, electronic components, switch machines, etc are also optional.
With metal, wood, tubular, segmented, folding, bolt-on, adjustable, and whatever other types, layout legs would be best having their own category, not specifically linked to either type of benchwork.
Scenery base is already divided into "heavy"(plaster/wire/paper towels, solid cast plaster rock faces, real dirt/rocks) and "light" (carved foam, shaped polyurethane expanding foam, cast resin/foam rockface shells), and can used on either benchwork type.
So what do you guys think? Shoulds we forge new paths in model railroading thinking?

[DKS]

I think we already have plenty of descriptive terminology.

L-girder.
Box frame.
Steel frame.
Foam-topped.
Cookie-cutter roadbed.
Spline roadbed.
Carved foam scenery.
Hardshell scenery.
Plaster over screen.
etcetera.

Are these not self-explanatory?

[robert3985]

I think we already have plenty of descriptive terminology.

L-girder.
Box frame.
Steel frame.
Foam-topped.
Cookie-cutter roadbed.
Spline roadbed.
Carved foam scenery.
Hardshell scenery.
Plaster over screen.
etcetera.

Are these not self-explanatory?

+1

[OldEastRR]

Are these not self-explanatory?

Not as far as to whether they make a heavy weighing, unwieldy framework or a lightweight one that can be dismantled and carried by one man. You listed some types of scenery and types of framework. Not all of them implicitly state what their materials are. For instance spline roadbed has been made from laminated Homasote, Masonite, 1/4" plywood, scribed extruded foam and in at least one instance from PVC piping. Much weight differences between those splines per linear foot?
I suppose we can sit back and say "Well, all the possible ways of doing model railroad construction are done, so why bother?" I think the fact that this ultra-dense extruded foam is not widely known among the model railroad community means that there are new experiments to be done in layout construction.
Don't forget -- John Allen's weathering ideas when he first presented them were considered by many to be a slight, if not outright insult, to "serious" model railroading.

[LV LOU]

Not as far as to whether they make a heavy weighing, unwieldy framework or a lightweight one that can be dismantled and carried by one man. You listed some types of scenery and types of framework. Not all of them implicitly state what their materials are. For instance spline roadbed has been made from laminated Homasote, Masonite, 1/4" plywood, scribed extruded foam and in at least one instance from PVC piping. Much weight differences between those splines per linear foot?
I suppose we can sit back and say "Well, all the possible ways of doing model railroad construction are done, so why bother?" I think the fact that this ultra-dense extruded foam is not widely known among the model railroad community means that there are new experiments to be done in layout construction.
Don't forget -- John Allen's weathering ideas when he first presented them were considered by many to be a slight, if not outright insult, to "serious" model railroading.

I would think one of the reasons the "ultra dense foam" is not well known is because nobody is going to spend 300 bucks for a sheet of foam..

[elnscale]

Roger,

That looks like this is against walls. If that is true, then you might be interested in my construction techniques which you can find at http://www.scrantonstation.com/scrantonlayout/progress/benchwork.htm

Steve

[DKS]

That looks like this is against walls. If that is true, then you might be interested in my construction techniques which you can find at http://www.scrantonstation.com/scrantonlayout/progress/benchwork.htm

Roger already established back on page 1 or 2 that it's a free-standing layout with access to all sides, and provided the dimensions.

Not as far as to whether they make a heavy weighing, unwieldy framework or a lightweight one that can be dismantled and carried by one man. You listed some types of scenery and types of framework. Not all of them implicitly state what their materials are. For instance spline roadbed has been made from laminated Homasote, Masonite, 1/4" plywood, scribed extruded foam and in at least one instance from PVC piping. Much weight differences between those splines per linear foot?
I suppose we can sit back and say "Well, all the possible ways of doing model railroad construction are done, so why bother?" I think the fact that this ultra-dense extruded foam is not widely known among the model railroad community means that there are new experiments to be done in layout construction.
Don't forget -- John Allen's weathering ideas when he first presented them were considered by many to be a slight, if not outright insult, to "serious" model railroading.

I really don't see where you're headed with all of this. Light, medium and heavy are all relative terms, and meaningless out of context. So is "battleship" or any other more creative terms, unless you intend to establish strict guidelines for definitions. If the construction techniques I listed are accompanied by a few more nouns, such as the basic dimensions of the materials used, then a relatively good description can be made. But I doubt you will get the modeling community to agree to some standardized set of terms, especially when so many different variations are possible. Yes, there is still plenty of room for experimenting, but the bottom line is, so what? That is true of any aspect of modeling. And the reference to John Allen is, at best, a non-sequitur.

I would think one of the reasons the "ultra dense foam" is not well known is because nobody is going to spend 300 bucks for a sheet of foam..

+1. There are loads of possibilities for esoteric, beyond-state-of-the-art benchwork, but when you're out in the stratosphere price-wise, you're not going to see a lot of early adopters.

[Denver Road Doug]

+1. There are loads of possibilities for esoteric, beyond-state-of-the-art benchwork, but when you're out in the stratosphere price-wise, you're not going to see a lot of early adopters.

Where did we come up with a figure of $300?   

I bought my 60psi 4x8 2" sheet for ~$60.   Maybe the 100psi stuff is $300/sheet? 

If it's $300 we'd have to evaluate if the additional cost warrants it, relative to how the 60psi works compared to the base product.   Granted, we (or at least *I* don't KNOW the correlation....is 100psi FIVE TIMES more sturdy/strong than 60psi, and does it matter?   Or is it only TWICE as strong but that's still significant enough to warrant the cost?  Analogy... buying a car...standard car goes 60mph for 20k, or you can get one that goes 150mph for 60k, or you can get one that goes 240mph for 300k.   Need that third option?   Dunno...maybe if you live near the Autobahn or a racing strip.

I think that in general you'll find that it will be a combination of all of these products and/or methods that yield the right solution for an individual modeler.   I personally think that a modular system based on a standard of a 16" wide, 4/6/8ft module of 2" foam (similar to T-Trak) would be an easy sale.   A foam home layout for the majority of model railroaders would probably work well.   My concern about a large foam layout would be the trip hazard risk.   People fall, and depending on the situation you could easily do some significant damage both in terms of physical destruction of the layout structure itself and financially due to potentially large amounts of locomotives and rolling stock being destroyed/damaged.   So there are all kinds of considerations.

[LV LOU]

 Doug,when did you buy that sheet? I bought 2'x8'x1" stuff 6 months ago,it was 11 bucks or so..Bought another three weeks ago,it was 19..4'x8'x2" is over 40 bucks a sheet..Yes,I just said 300 off the top of my head,but I could easily see that high density plywood/aluminum  laminated stuff approaching that..And I see few people spending 60,either,when there's basically little difference in the stuff that costs 40.And the high density stuff probably weighs almost as much as a HCD,or light benchwork......

[SOCAL-Bill]

Every technical specification (excluding price) you ever wanted to know about foam boards:

http://www.foamular.com/foam/products/

http://building.dow.com/na/en/products/insulation/rigidfoam.htm

[C855B]

Everything you ever wanted to know about foam boards:

Except price.

[Denver Road Doug]

Doug,when did you buy that sheet? I bought 2'x8'x1" stuff 6 months ago,it was 11 bucks or so..Bought another three weeks ago,it was 19..4'x8'x2" is over 40 bucks a sheet..Yes,I just said 300 off the top of my head,but I could easily see that high density plywood/aluminum  laminated stuff approaching that..And I see few people spending 60,either,when there's basically little difference in the stuff that costs 40.And the high density stuff probably weighs almost as much as a HCD,or light benchwork......

Admittedly, it was a little over 2 years ago, and I paid $52 for it.   So it very well may have increased in price but just looking online it doesn't seem like it would be much more than $60, if any.

I think the real issue is...is there little difference?   As I said previously, it was (mostly) blind luck and foolish shopping that I got the higher psi stuff.   But, I have to say I've had a lot of folks tell me it wouldn't work and that it would get "dented" and pock-marked and wouldn't be very durable.   And for the most part, I haven't experienced any of that with the higher PSI stuff...the pink 1" 25psi stuff on top, a little bit.   So, maybe the extra $20 is worth it.   As far as weight goes, I haven't been able to find anything about what a 4x8 sheet weighs but I would say it was "marginally" heavier but not much.   It is still extremely lightweight.

I would say if you're comparing 2" foam to an HCD, it will be very comparable.  The foam would give you a little more flexibility with form factor.  The HCD would be much cheaper.   I would guess rigidity and weight would be similar.

[Denver Road Doug]

Except price.

And weight.

[SOCAL-Bill]

And weight.

Dow shows their extruded product at 1.8 pounds per cubic foot. Meaning a 2"x4'x8' piece will be 9.6 pounds.

http://msdssearch.dow.com/PublishedLiteratureDOWCOM/dh_0568/0901b80380568198.pdf?filepath=styrofoam/pdfs/noreg/179-06466.pdf&fromPage=GetDoc

Round up to 2 pcf and you can figure on 10.67 pounds per board.
Home Depot shows the Owens Corning product at 10.1 pounds for a 4x8 2-inch piece. So about the same 1.8 to 2 pcf.

Next I'll see complaints that the specs fail to say what they smell and taste like.   

[LV LOU]

I used plain old blue foam on several layouts before I discovered denser pink/purple foam,and if I didn't now know such denser stuff existed,I'd STILL be using the blue exclusively,I have/had no complaints about it,it did what I expected it to do,it's foam.My present RR is mostly blue,since I didn't know about the better stuff when I started it..By the way,a coat of latex paint on foam significantly stiffens it up...