What are the best materials for supporting a foam based layout.

[wazzou]

Simple..You start the flat surface with 2" foam,and work up from there..

That method doesn't make the attachment of fascia all that easy.

[OldEastRR]

Somebody give me an absolute, unassailable reason why a sheet of 2" extruded needs anything more than legs (or wall-mounted supports) for support of an N scale layout, instead of an array of wood, gatorboard, steel, lexan, or whatever.

DKS, I didn't get your answer to my #2 question. Is it not relevant? FTR, my list was the questions anybody who is thinking of a foam-based layout should ask before they decide. I wasn't asking Roger.

[robert3985]

Somebody give me an absolute, unassailable reason why a sheet of 2" extruded needs anything more than legs (or wall-mounted supports) for support of an N scale layout, instead of an array of wood, gatorboard, steel, lexan, or whatever.

DKS, I didn't get your answer to my #2 question. Is it not relevant? FTR, my list was the questions anybody who is thinking of a foam-based layout should ask before they decide. I wasn't asking Roger.

It sags...under it's own weight....even without anything on top of it.  An 8' span of 2" Styrofoam will sag with legs on the corners.  It will sag less with the legs a foot an a half in from the ends and a foot in from the edge if it's 4' wide.  Provide a base made from structurally sound materials, like wood, aluminum, steel...properly placed underneath it, to both provide support and a place to mount folding legs and cross bracing and it won't sag noticeably.  Rog is using full 4X8 sheets of the stuff for his layout top...that size needs support.

However, I have a 2' X 8' diorama of Curvo that I've been working on on and off for the past five years.  It's constructed of nothing but 2" sheets of blue Styrofoam and it isn't sagging, even when put ceremoniously on top of a random pile of foam pieces and parts in the corner of my garage.  That's probably because it consists of up to 4 layers of 2" foam well-glued to each other.  Roger is building flatland, and will probably not have even another piece of significant height to warrant a major 2" lamination to his layout top.

I've stored three sheets of blue 2" Styrofoam unevenly on top of an old washer and dryer in my garage, and all of them are warped...not a little, but a lot.  So, a base of some sort is necessary for large sheets of the stuff.  Smaller sheets (or layouts) may not need the sturdy underpinnings, but Roger's will because of their span, and also as attachment points for his folding legs.

[robert3985]

Roger, I just came up with the perfect idea for your layout support/benchwork!!  I think we've all been overthinking this.  What would work really well for you would be simply to buy enough folding tables to put your 2" Styrofoam on top of.  What dimension are they anyway?  6 to 8 feet long and 30" wide?  You can make the tubular steel legs shorter by cutting them with a pipe cutter or hacksaw, or taller by removing the rubber feet and making extenders out of conduit.  The conduit goes up to the bend in the legs and stops...it's easy easy.

You could just glue on strips or pieces you cut by hand from other sheets of Styrofoam to register the big sheets on top of the table, or you could simply glue the sheet to the table top.  I think I'd go for the registration pieces...and maybe use long grabbers and two or four pieces of 1/4" thick plywood with clearance holes drilled into them so the long grabbers would bite into the folding table top, but the heads protruding through the wood pieces would clamp the Styrofoam to the table tops!

You could glue another layer of 2" foam to the edges to form a bigger footprint to glue your fascia to...easy once again.

Maybe it's just late at night and I'm not thinking straight, but I think this would be easy, quick and very sturdy and require minimal tools and/or carpentry skills.

[DKS]

Roger, I just came up with the perfect idea for your layout support/benchwork!!  I think we've all been overthinking this.  What would work really well for you would be simply to buy enough folding tables to put your 2" Styrofoam on top of.  What dimension are they anyway?  6 to 8 feet long and 30" wide?  You can make the tubular steel legs shorter by cutting them with a pipe cutter or hacksaw, or taller by removing the rubber feet and making extenders out of conduit.  The conduit goes up to the bend in the legs and stops...it's easy easy.

You could just glue on strips or pieces you cut by hand from other sheets of Styrofoam to register the big sheets on top of the table, or you could simply glue the sheet to the table top.  I think I'd go for the registration pieces...and maybe use long grabbers and two or four pieces of 1/4" thick plywood with clearance holes drilled into them so the long grabbers would bite into the folding table top, but the heads protruding through the wood pieces would clamp the Styrofoam to the table tops!

You could glue another layer of 2" foam to the edges to form a bigger footprint to glue your fascia to...easy once again.

Maybe it's just late at night and I'm not thinking straight, but I think this would be easy, quick and very sturdy and require minimal tools and/or carpentry skills.

You're too late, Robert.

Being pretty lazy (not to mention unskilled when it comes to woodworking), I just used cheap Office Max folding-leg tables for my "benchwork". No complaints so far.



Cheers,
-Mark

Somebody give me an absolute, unassailable reason why a sheet of 2" extruded needs anything more than legs (or wall-mounted supports) for support of an N scale layout, instead of an array of wood, gatorboard, steel, lexan, or whatever.

Robert is right, it will sag. I can attest to that. At minimum, it needs something rigid that runs it's length, or close to it. However, I have also found that two 2" sheets laminated together won't sag. But in either case, if it's going to be free-standing, you'll need some sort of infrastructure to which the legs get mounted; you can't just attach them to the foam directly. So you'll need to build a wood/steel/whatever benchtop of some sort to which the foam is glued.

I wasn't asking Roger.

Sure sounded like it.

[LV LOU]

That method doesn't make the attachment of fascia all that easy.

Open benchwork doesn't make the attachment of a model railroad all that "easy"..And just how do you "easily" attach a fascia to the aforementioned benchwork? My benchwork edge is 1X4,and the foam is aligned right with the top edge,if it was freestanding,I could do as I wish with no work at all,just screw on Masonite,more foam,whatever..

[DKS]

That method doesn't make the attachment of fascia all that easy.

Actually, it's relatively easy to attach fascia to foam.



Not any harder than attaching it to the joist ends in L-girder benchwork (IMO, a bit easier).

[SkipGear]

I have never understood L girder construction myself. It just seems to triple the amount of pieces needed to accomplish the final goal. I think it was designed for people who can't use power tools properly.

I chose an open grid made of 2x3's because I couldn't afford the thickness below the layout as there is a workbench below. No open space larger than a 2' span. Everything is screwed and glued. No worries about sags.

Here is the corner section with an opening in it for a helix.



Even this is a bit of overkill but I didn't have a table saw to rip plywood strips or I may have gone that way.

[SOCAL-Bill]

I've always been impressed by the fantastic benchwork I see on the Net and in magazines. Seems like some make that the focus of their layout!!

Personally, I am not all that handy with power tools and building a formidable support structure is not something I would enjoy. I was happy to see the photo above using the folding tables as a support. I plan on doing the same thing with the layout I am going to start soon.

I am going to attach two 1x2 pieces of lumber to the bottom running the length to lift and support the foam so I can run wiring, etc. The foam base is 96x40 and will sit on a 96x30 inch table. Liquid Nails project adhesive will hold the support pieces to the bottom and will also be used to attach the fascia when I get to that. My layout is based on the V11 Unitrack package.

[LV LOU]

It sags...under it's own weight....even without anything on top of it.  An 8' span of 2" Styrofoam will sag with legs on the corners.  It will sag less with the legs a foot an a half in from the ends and a foot in from the edge if it's 4' wide.  Provide a base made from structurally sound materials, like wood, aluminum, steel...properly placed underneath it, to both provide support and a place to mount folding legs and cross bracing and it won't sag noticeably.  Rog is using full 4X8 sheets of the stuff for his layout top...that size needs support.

However, I have a 2' X 8' diorama of Curvo that I've been working on on and off for the past five years.  It's constructed of nothing but 2" sheets of blue Styrofoam and it isn't sagging, even when put ceremoniously on top of a random pile of foam pieces and parts in the corner of my garage.  That's probably because it consists of up to 4 layers of 2" foam well-glued to each other.  Roger is building flatland, and will probably not have even another piece of significant height to warrant a major 2" lamination to his layout top.

I've stored three sheets of blue 2" Styrofoam unevenly on top of an old washer and dryer in my garage, and all of them are warped...not a little, but a lot.  So, a base of some sort is necessary for large sheets of the stuff.  Smaller sheets (or layouts) may not need the sturdy underpinnings, but Roger's will because of their span, and also as attachment points for his folding legs.

I'll have to agree with that.I wouldn't trust a totally unsupported 4x8 sheet of foam to get the job done.You need some king of supporting structure.A smaller railroad could get away with it,I'm planning a portable2-1/2' X 5' 1920's ice/logging railroad that will be totally made of foam.I'm actually going to make "benchwork" for it out of 2" foam,and I'm going to box in the bottom with Masonite.If you want to build a RR with minimum benchwork,you should know that there are huge differences in different foam.Blue is the softest,and most flexible.Pink is a little stronger.The purple stuff is the strongest.Blue will tear when you cut it while carving to make scenery,the breaks look like rock strata.Purple is more easily sanded to make road contours,ETC.Pink is a good compromise between both.If I were to start my RR over,the base would be 2" purple foam,everything above would be pink..

[JoeD]

Ah, the ghost of Linn Wescott...  Remember, his techniques were geared towards HO and larger, so standard stud construction practices were the rule of the day.  If you couldn't park your car on it...forget it.    I've torn out a few of these layouts and the amount of wood used would be enough to add a new room on the house.  I did some work for a fellow a few years ago who wanted to use 2" foam for a substantial layout and we found a stock of resin impregnated cardboard angle stock that could be epoxied long ways on the bottom of the foam for support.  All in all, we cut the construction cost by 50% and got a really nice layout.  The cardboard was found in a discount lumber yard, but I've seen it on line from companies who provide heavy packing solutions.  I'm probably like a lot of folks here and spend my spare time noodling the next Magnum Opus layout that we will  never get to...and over engineering it as well.  I have to keep reminding myself that I am doing N or Z and the constists and structures are featherlite compared to HO.

Joe

[C855B]

Extruded purple foam? Who makes it and where do you buy it? The colors are just brand identities, although I find it interesting that there are distinctions in each brand's characteristics. Anyway:

  Pink = Owens-Corning = Home Depot
  Blue = Dow Chemical = Lowe's
  Purple = ????

Thanks!

[Denver Road Doug]

Yes, I'll admit I've never seen or heard of purple, but here in Texas it's difficult to find ANY 2" foam, much less worry about what color it is, who makes it or how stout it is.

I built my latest layout using a laminate of 2" blue and 1" pink.  The 2" blue was all I could locate, and the 1" pink was the only 1" I could locate as well.   (I suppose the place I bought the 2" from might have had 1" blue, but I had already bought the pink when I went there)

I agree that a full 4x8 sheet of 2" wouldn't fare too well as a standalone layout board...in short, it can't support it's own weight.   But, 2x8 becomes a little more workable (half the weight and same strength) and anything below that could very well be a layout board, IMHO.   My laminated 1"+2" sandwich is very solid, no sagging.  It's a two-piece dog bone and one piece is around 7ft while the other is around 6ft...both are around 34" on the ends and 14" in the middle.   They just sit on top of bookshelves, but I would trust them in a variety of scenarios...wall brackets, table legs, etc.   Granted it's not the typical "2010's" layout form factor, but given what I've learned during the process and the results, I would stand by the method for just about any type of layout, with the possible exception of some great expanse (think Chicago MSI layout) that would need more support.

Here are some pics to show what I'm doing...


I overhung the top 1" piece a bit just for aesthetics.


Shows wiring "conduit" and cavities for DCC electronics and wiring, cut (and shown) before laminating the 1" piece on top.


The end result. (Obviously the layout itself is still very much under construction, and this was pre-backdrop, too.)

[LV LOU]

Extruded purple foam? Who makes it and where do you buy it? The colors are just brand identities, although I find it interesting that there are distinctions in each brand's characteristics. Anyway:

  Pink = Owens-Corning = Home Depot
  Blue = Dow Chemical = Lowe's
  Purple = ????

Thanks!

Purple is Corning Foamular 250,got it at Home Depot..It's only a slightly different color than the pink.Seriously,it's WAY stronger than the blue.I have really strong hands.I can take a piece of blue and squeeze it between my thumb & forefinger,and sink both fingertips in it 1/2 inch or more.I can't even dent the purple doing that..

[LV LOU]

I've always been impressed by the fantastic benchwork I see on the Net and in magazines. Seems like some make that the focus of their layout!!

Well,considering most railroads never actually get to scenery,it usually IS,LOL!!!