Vacuum car project

[LV LOU]

Looks like another way to achieve tractive effort!    Can you fit it into a loco? 

Maybe an E8,LOL!!

[LV LOU]

Sounds like you also might want too tether it down for fear it might fly around the room!!!

Jon

Actually,it's gonna be blowing up,I hope it doesn't blow a mountaintop off when it's in a tunnel!!!

[LV LOU]

Floquil is still alive and well in my local hobby store.it is also available online. recently Micro Mark was touting the fact that they still have plenty of Floquil in stock.

Pete,just where did you see this? I just looked at the Micro Mark website,they have nothing,like 5 useless colors..

[mmagliaro]

I don't know if this will help you out, but Motrak Models is a Scalecoat dealer.
Scalecoat makes beautiful solvent-based paints as you probably know, but they are gloss finish instead
of flat like Floquil.  However, they do make their paint in flat finish, but only sell it that way in quarts.

Motrak has been given permission to rebottle the Scalecoat flat into 2 oz bottles and resell it that way.  Right now,
he is selling these colors:

011 - White
113 - Rust
114 - Sand
115 - Dirt
116 - RR Grime #1
117 - RR Grime #2
118 - Engine Black

If any of those are close (or exact) for the Floquil colors you'd like, maybe this is helpful.
Also, if you write to him with enough interest, perhaps he would rebottle other colors.

He is at:
www.motrakmodels.net

The web address just reroutes to an eBay store.   The eBay store indicates that you have to email him if you want the paint.
I did get an email newsletter from him that showed the rebottled paints.

I have met the fellow once at a train show and bought some
of his hopped car loads. 

[LV LOU]

I don't know if this will help you out, but Motrak Models is a Scalecoat dealer.
Scalecoat makes beautiful solvent-based paints as you probably know, but they are gloss finish instead
of flat like Floquil.  However, they do make their paint in flat finish, but only sell it that way in quarts.

Motrak has been given permission to rebottle the Scalecoat flat into 2 oz bottles and resell it that way.  Right now,
he is selling these colors:

011 - White
113 - Rust
114 - Sand
115 - Dirt
116 - RR Grime #1
117 - RR Grime #2
118 - Engine Black

If any of those are close (or exact) for the Floquil colors you'd like, maybe this is helpful.
Also, if you write to him with enough interest, perhaps he would rebottle other colors.

He is at:
www.motrakmodels.net

The web address just reroutes to an eBay store.   The eBay store indicates that you have to email him if you want the paint.
I did get an email newsletter from him that showed the rebottled paints.

I have met the fellow once at a train show and bought some
of his hopped car loads.

Thanks Max! I think I'm just gonna take a ride with Wifey some Saturday to English's,and stock up on Scalecoat,and whatever other solvent paints they might have I can use.I still have quit a bit of Floquil,just need some basic stuff.Besides,I have an 87 year old Aunt in Lock Haven,I'll go see her while I'm at it,pay for gas for a ride rather than waste it on shipping..Probably get the paint cheaper,too,LOL!!

[peteski]

Pete,just where did you see this? I just looked at the Micro Mark website,they have nothing,like 5 useless colors..

I'm on the Micro Mark's email list. Few weeks ago I received an email from them stating that they still have plenty of Floquil paints in stock.  Maybe after the email they sold out quickly?

If you can't find it, I can check if my LHS has some Reefer Yellow left. I could buy it and send it to you.

[LV LOU]

I'm on the Micro Mark's email list. Few weeks ago I received an email from them stating that they still have plenty of Floquil paints in stock.  Maybe after the email they sold out quickly?

If you can't find it, I can check if my LHS has some Reefer Yellow left. I could buy it and send it to you.

Pete,thanks for the offer,but guess what? I just realized I can't do it even if I had the paint..I'm gonna hafta go scrounging for the decals,they're gone too..The whole project is a foob anyway,I'll dig something out of the decal box..Maybe Tuscan with yellow or something,just make them look like freight/passenger cars..I'm getting sick of beating my head off the wall trying to find simple stuff like paint,it's getting to be like work...

[up1950s]

The MP PB is too small with the electronics I want to use so I picked up a Bluford 86" high cube which will be rolling on Kato GS-4 tender trucks .

[up1950s]

Still waiting the electronics , but the car , fans and the plastic bottle that I will use the neck and cap are here . This is a unfinished clean out port , just to show step one progress .

[up1950s]

Just an update .

Those special circuits , don't like working with each other and component rich , fail .

LM-7805 times 4 , don't like working with each other and become component rich , also works as a voltage shiftier more than a regulator , fail .

LM-317 , see above .

LM-338 2 watt , works as a voltage shiftier more than a regulator , fail .

9 volt battery , 2 per car xs 2 cars and a electronics car trailing behind the vacuum car ( 4 cars ) , I could make this work but geez . fail

10 watt 5.1V Zenner Diode w 10 watt 5 ohm resistor , both get way to hot though the amperage is ok and the output voltage stays within a volt or 2 . fail

Eight 1 watt 5v Zenner Diodes , to hot and a silly design , fail

So whats left ................. that phrase , think out of the box , or better carbody

I already will need to add a dropping resistor to whatever loco I will use as the dedicated loco , that's a given and always was .
So what about a dedicated power supply to deal with the thing . I picked up a 2 amp slotcar power supply . It has no polarity or voltage adjustment . Kind of like those switchable voltage wall worts , but weighs about as much as a brick . Only about 38 bucks , and could be used as a great bench voltage supply as well .

I also assembled quad voltage and amp meters , something I always wanted to make life easier . Probes have there use , but this clip on setup is the bomb .

So what I now need on board is a bridge rectifier for the fans , and a way to stop them from getting over voltage . Most 5 VDC relays will turn on at 3 volts , so I added a resister in series with the coil to open the feed to the fans only at 5.5 volts . I plan on testing this with other relays I have and some just ordered yesterday . This works like a charm , and a good thing , because other than 4 new 9 volt batteries per cleaning was my only fallback plan .

I went to Google Chrome 5 days ago due to the new save image and it defaults to unknown BMP file with the latest Adobe . I mention this because i am transferring from my Never Gave Me A Problem GOOGLE PICASA to PICASAWEB which I hate with a passion . 

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-SgC-g1eVenk/Urnj0yyYoxI/AAAAAAAAA6g/v1GTaFkrk0w/s128/2013-12-24%20d.jpg

[peteski]

Richie, I read thought the entire thread again, but between yours, LV Lou's and couple other ideas, it is not quite clear what you are trying to accomplish.  Originally you mentioned about using some pre-made voltage reg. circuits.  What do you mean by "voltage shifter"?

So, what is the goal here and what specifically is failing for all those methods you tried?  I'm not even sure at this point if you use DC or DCC power.  Voltage regulator ICs (like 7805 or 317) are pretty stable (you might need to use couple of caps to make them very stable).  The fans you are using are brushless fans which should also work well with slightly varying voltage and they should not generate any BEMF (like plain permanent-magnet DC motors) to mess with the voltage regulator circuitry.

Also remember that the power  which is wasted by the regulator has to dissipate somewhere. Unless you use some sort of switching power supply, all the analog series-connected voltage regulators (7805, 317) will need heat sinks.

[up1950s]

Richie, I read thought the entire thread again, but between yours, LV Lou's and couple other ideas, it is not quite clear what you are trying to accomplish.  Originally you mentioned about using some pre-made voltage reg. circuits.  What do you mean by "voltage shifter"?

So, what is the goal here and what specifically is failing for all those methods you tried?  I'm not even sure at this point if you use DC or DCC power.  Voltage regulator ICs (like 7805 or 317) are pretty stable (you might need to use couple of caps to make them very stable).  The fans you are using are brushless fans which should also work well with slightly varying voltage and they should not generate any BEMF (like plain permanent-magnet DC motors) to mess with the voltage regulator circuitry.

Also remember that the power  which is wasted by the regulator has to dissipate somewhere. Unless you use some sort of switching power supply, all the analog series-connected voltage regulators (7805, 317) will need heat sinks.

Voltage shifting is what happens when the input in this case is 0-12 and the output is about 4-8 . The more stable the input the better one can lock in a stable output .

I used the various caps THAT CAN FIT , but the biggest result was slower bleed off  , and thus carry fan speed through intermittent opens in pick up .

I used heat sinks but there is that confined space issue .

The pre-mades don't work when ganged together , maybe with isolation ckts they would , but they are light duty and took up too much room just ganged together .

My goal is to make a Super Massive Black Hole of a rolling vacuum car . These 4 fans together roar , nothing loose can escape the event horizon when I get done .
They are 15mm thick and so are the blades . The blades are at a more aggressive angle , 45 deg's or so .

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Delta-25-mm-5-V-Fan-AFB02505HHB-13000-RPM-4-1-CFM-/271276363545

[peteski]

It won't be easy to do a perfect voltage shift. That is because solid-state voltage regulators need some (minimum) voltage to operate and they also need the input voltage to be higher than output voltage.

Is your goal to provide a variable voltage to the fans or have them running at full speed while operating?

As far as components getting hot, like I said, there is no magic bullet. The voltage differential between the input and output will be dissipated as heat.  The only way around that would be ti use a switching power supply (which like DCC decoder motor driving circuit uses PWM method of providing the output voltage). Those types of power supplies dissipate (or waste) much less power.

A simpler circuit would be to just use plain silicon rectifier diodes wired in series with the load (your fans).  Each diode drops around 0.7V across it. So, 9 diodes in series would drop around 6.3V.  With input voltage of 0-12V, the output voltage would be 0-5.7V.  ABut the diodes will also get warm (since they will be dissipating the 0.7V across each diode).

I still have my doubts about the "suckability"  of a vacuum using cooling fans.  While those fans can move large volume of air, they might not generate enough vacuum (in inches of mercury) to make a good vacuum cleaner.  Have you actually tested them in that capacity? 

[up1950s]

It won't be easy to do a perfect voltage shift. That is because solid-state voltage regulators need some (minimum) voltage to operate and they also need the input voltage to be higher than output voltage.

Is your goal to provide a variable voltage to the fans or have them running at full speed while operating?

As far as components getting hot, like I said, there is no magic bullet. The voltage differential between the input and output will be dissipated as heat.  The only way around that would be ti use a switching power supply (which like DCC decoder motor driving circuit uses PWM method of providing the output voltage). Those types of power supplies dissipate (or waste) much less power.

A simpler circuit would be to just use plain silicon rectifier diodes wired in series with the load (your fans).  Each diode drops around 0.7V across it. So, 9 diodes in series would drop around 6.3V.  With input voltage of 0-12V, the output voltage would be 0-5.7V.  ABut the diodes will also get warm (since they will be dissipating the 0.7V across each diode).

I still have my doubts about the "suckability"  of a vacuum using cooling fans.  While those fans can move large volume of air, they might not generate enough vacuum (in inches of mercury) to make a good vacuum cleaner.  Have you actually tested them in that capacity?

I gave up on trying to control the voltage to the fans . The variable voltage needed to the loco screws the pooch on a steady high ( relative ) currant and mid range voltage . I don't know if DCC in N size can supply it . Maybe with a DCC of a larger scale unit shoehorned in might be the easiest way to go . My plan is to have the on board relay just cut the power to the fans at 5.5 v or so . This , today , I proved is easy to tweak . That then leaves all the power to the loco . The loco will be resistored or dioded to run at a desired speed before the fans cut out . The loco should continue to run as fast as I dare to get to a work location . When the fans cut out I fully expect the loco to lurch to warp speed . I haven't put these fans to a carbody mounted test , but I did with smaller fans and though they weren't at the top end of their designed voltage they did pick up well .

[peteski]

Unfortunately, most DC throttles (even most transistorized ones) simply act like a resistor in series between the load (loco and fans) and the full voltage source in the throttle.   In order to minimize the voltage swings under different loads, you would have to use a DC throttle based on a voltage regulator (like LM317 IC).  That kind of throttle would keep its output voltage steady under varying loads. But then of course the resistance of the wiring and the track itself will affect the voltage swings (but to a lesser degree since that resistance is much smaller than the resistance of the loads like motor and fans).