Atlas Forum MT SW1500 DCC Thread #2 :)

[Puddington]

They should finish designs BEFORE they announce the product. 

Jason

From my now limited experience that is not really practical. Announcing is a way to both create a buzz and gage buyer interest. The "finite" design issues, which can include specific model details, decoder selection, final truck design and a myriad of other small but highly significant issues can be almost a "last minute decision" before tooling is made ....Perhaps not what a small percentage of us want to hear (as we are uber detail oriented and "care" about such details way beyond the vast majority of the target audience) but that seems to be what is more common than we might othrwise think....

[wcfn100]

From my now limited experience that is not really practical. Announcing is a way to both create a buzz and gage buyer interest. The "finite" design issues, which can include specific model details, decoder selection, final truck design and a myriad of other small but highly significant issues can be almost a "last minute decision" before tooling is made ....Perhaps not what a small percentage of us want to hear (as we are uber detail oriented and "care" about such details way beyond the vast majority of the target audience) but that seems to be what is more common than we might othrwise think....

DCC readiness isn't really a small issue.

If course my post has been taken out of context as they always are.  I don't care what stage a manufacturer announces something.  But once that happens, anything and everything is fair game to question openly and publicly.

If you can't handle that, then don't announce it.

Jason

[Rossford Yard]

I recall a very old MR cartoon where the mfg boss tells his design engineer something like "We better get started on designing that 2-10-2 we announced 10 years ago...."  Granted, that was in relation to always limited run brass locos, but these days, even the plastic diesels are essentially limited runs, no?

It's not a new issue, but it still this does strike me as odd that a company like MT hadn't figured this out, or would even admit it might be a problem in this day and age.  There had to be some mitigating circumstance, like some newb in their marketing department, or a rush to make an announcement, either at the NTS, or in response to some rumor they hears about another mfg thinking about doing the same model.  Just a guess, of course.

[Denver Road Doug]

I think the MTL SW1500 is going to be another example of a manufacturer spending a lot of resources developing a model and then sabotaging it by releasing a less-than-state-of-the-art product. (see late LL/early Walthers, early Athearn N, Bachmann, et al)    I can see some manufacturers making that mistake of thinking DCC and headlights aren't important by virtue of corporate size, n-scale as a 2nd, 3rd, 5th priority, etc. (and yet, Atlas still manages to deliver top-notch product...)   But MTL has their fingers on the pulse...there's really no reason we should be having this discussion.

Five or six years from now, there will be a discussion at a train show between John Q. Modelrailroder and the MTL rep.   John will be asking "why aren't you guys doing more of the SW1500's" and the rep will say....they just weren't that popular/n-scalers suck/n-scalers just don't support the hobby, etc.   Well, that won't fly as an excuse, Micro-Trains.  You know better.  I support Micro-Trains, but you know better.   And I said the same thing to Life-Like and Athearn and Bachmann.

On second thought, I really don't think that conversation will happen.   Instead it will be two or three booths down, in front of a shelf with 4th run Alco S2's, 2nd run GP50's, and 3rd run SW1500's.   "Atlas, you guys really hit another one out of the park with these SW1500's....thanks!"

[TiVoPrince]

Product
development usually means that 'someone' has taken stock of internal and external abilities and made some basic decisions.  Realistically items like DCC or lighting would have been thoroughly diiscssed, evaluated, and decisions made well in advance of a NTS announcement. 

Boldly making a big announcement and then silence is not a realistic expectation in this Twitter/Facebook 24 hour a day news environment.  Politicians often try to have a news confrence as anouncements only without answering questions, seldom does this work out as designed.  Not answering questions can appear to be a sign of unpreparedness.  Anticipating the 'gotcha' questions , whether at a news confrence or in a discussion forum is a shure sign of professionalisim and thourough preperation.

History will someday record the results of this episode.  The rating scale of InterMontain tunnel motors and other manufacturers (new direction or revolutionary) introductory releases (both good and bad) will be applied.  This could easily be a defining moment for MTL...

[Scottl]

Why is everyone worked up about this?  Have they even announced these details, or this this just more hatcheting from the armchair?  I could not care less about SW1500s, but I'm pleased to see MT committing to new tooling for a n scale locomotive that will likely be of great interest to many people.  Let them promote it at a train show and generate some buzz.  These things take time, as well know all too well.

[bbussey]

They should finish designs BEFORE they announce the product. 

Not practical most of the time.  The field is crowded now.  Announcing early lessens the possibility of another manufacturer starting a project based on the same prototype.  As we've seen in most cases when that happens, it's to the detriment of both companies.

[bbussey]

I think the MTL SW1500 is going to be another example of a manufacturer spending a lot of resources developing a model and then sabotaging it by releasing a less-than-state-of-the-art product. (see late LL/early Walthers, early Athearn N, Bachmann, et al)    I can see some manufacturers making that mistake of thinking DCC and headlights aren't important by virtue of corporate size, n-scale as a 2nd, 3rd, 5th priority, etc. (and yet, Atlas still manages to deliver top-notch product...)   But MTL has their fingers on the pulse...there's really no reason we should be having this discussion...

Really?  How can you make that assessment when there is no point of relevance to base it on?  The FT (the only N scale MTL locomotive to date) was well-received, so MTL is batting 1.000 on N scale locomotive models.  If the SW1500 model is released and not up to current standards, then it's fair game.  But you have to wait until the model is released before passing judgement.
 

[Alaska Railroader]

It was brought up earlier on this board that MTL was just in the talking stages with various DCC vendors to see whose would be the best fit even though the switcher was already publicly announced. Based on that I believe this is why guys are asking why this wasn't already figured out before the announcement.

[CBQ Fan]

Out of every 100 locos sold of a particular model, how many are DCC??  Are we talking 5, 10, 25, 40, 60 or what??

[peteski]

Out of every 100 locos sold of a particular model, how many are DCC??  Are we talking 5, 10, 25, 40, 60 or what??

For me it is the ease of installing a decoder rather than producing a locomotive with built-in decoder that makes the difference.  I suspect that if you were to look at a line of locomotives from a manufacturers that sells DC and DCC versions of a model, the sell more DC locomotives.

But we are living in the 21st Century and DCC popularity is spreading, while DC is (very slowly) fading away.  Smart manufacturers realize this and they produce models which have either a true plug-n-play capability, or are easily converted to DCC.  This is especially important in model locomotives which are small (such as the model discussed here).  This to me is more important than producing a model with a built-in decoder.

[TiVoPrince]

Out of every 100 locos sold of a particular model, how many are DCC??  Are we talking 5, 10, 25, 40, 60 or what??

Alternatively
how may linger and gather dust on retail shelves because they are DCC hostile?

For Bachmann 70t and 44t it is 100 of 100 for Dual Mode DCC.  Kato NWs are DCC friendly.  Atlas MP15DC is DCC friendly.  DCC unfriendly designs that predate the revolution include the Arnold S2 and LifeLike SW900/1200.  I may be forgetting a few, but these are size similar to the SW1500 that come to mind...

[CBQ Fan]

I wasn't commenting on the validity or the direction of DCC just wondering what percentage of the market are we talking.  Trying to learn not judge!

[Sokramiketes]

 DCC unfriendly designs that predate the revolution include the Arnold S2...

How is the first American prototype N scale locomotive to feature a factory installed decoder "DCC unfriendly"?   

[Denver Road Doug]

Really?  How can you make that assessment when there is no point of relevance to base it on?  The FT (the only N scale MTL locomotive to date) was well-received, so MTL is batting 1.000 on N scale locomotive models.  If the SW1500 model is released and not up to current standards, then it's fair game.  But you have to wait until the model is released before passing judgement.

Well, it's very clear that AT BEST the idea of putting a decoder in it was an afterthought.   And unless I am mistaken there is NO DISPUTE that the switcher only has a front headlight, but no rear headlight.   To me, "current standards" includes both of those features, and it's pretty surprising to me that MTL doesn't consider them important.  (not important enough to be listed as a feature, that's a fact.)

If the loco was announced with Rapido couplers, wouldn't that be just as ludicrous?   Same concept.