Tragedy in Spain

[Philip H]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/passenger-train-derails-in-northwestern-spain-leaving-at-least-40-dead-many-injured/2013/07/24/39043a58-f4c5-11e2-81fa-8e83b3864c36_story.html?hpid=z2

In part because Americans don't understand Spanish trains the coverage is a bit off.  This is a high speed Ave train that was headed north to a station near a summer/ski resort town.  Aside from taking out a ton of cars, it also hit the station platform - which may account for some of the deaths.

RENFE hasn't had a major loss of life since the Madrid bombings nearly a decade ago.  My heart goes out to them.

[lock4244]

The theory of bad derailments happen in three's holds true:

Lac-Megantic
Paris
Spain

[Bob Bufkin]

A station trackside security camera caught the crash.  Looks to me like it was going way to fast. 

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/07/25/spain-train-crash-video_n_3651445.html?icid=maing-grid7%7Chtmlws-main-bb%7Cdl1%7Csec1_lnk1%26pLid%3D348971

[C855B]

A station trackside security camera caught the crash.  Looks to me like it was going way to fast.

Yes. Preliminary investigation says train was going 100+ mph into a 50 mph curve.

[pnolan48]

Absolutely horrifying video, considering the death toll. Scares me into thinking more than twice about taking the Acela from NYC-Bos--or even the local, which gets up there in speed. Such a tragedy.

[C855B]

... Scares me into thinking more than twice about taking the Acela from NYC-Bos--or even the local, which gets up there in speed. ...

Not to worry (...too much...) about your US-side concerns. From the various reports I've been browsing, this appears to be a tragedy of design coupled with a moment of inattention. The curve was way too sharp for Spanish high-speed specifications, but they were forced to compromise in this location because of budget and land use or land acquisition restrictions. Local commentators say that it was an accident in the making, recognized from the beginning. I'm surprised, however, given its recent construction, that there was not some manner of automated speed control system in place, making the 70 mph speed reduction entirely dependent on the operator.

[lock4244]

Can't blame cuts for more corporate profits for this one.

Not being flippant or intending any disrespect to the victims in any way, but after Megantic there has been a lot of finger pointing at greedy corporate types. Yet seems that there was indeed the same type of process involved here. Isolated decisions that required a series of events to coincide in order for this accident to occur.

[Philip H]

RENFE is a state run quasi private entity.

[Scottl]

Horrifying to watch the video.   These accidents, along with air crashes, can lead us to think these forms of transportation are less safe.  However, compared to driving, they are still much safer.  People die on the road every day and large numbers are seriously injured.

[Philip H]

Horrifying to watch the video.   These accidents, along with air crashes, can lead us to think these forms of transportation are less safe.  However, compared to driving, they are still much safer.  People die on the road every day and large numbers are seriously injured.

Indeed.  When the Madrid station was bombed, I had been on the adjoining platform the month before in transit back from Seville.  Didn't, and still doesn't, dissuade me from riding Spanish trains.  That train shouldn't have been running on that track - which is the platform-side track.  Even if the operator had made the slowdown appropriately it would have been dangerous.

[peteski]

While the derailment video was horrifying (knowing that many people perished), to me it looked just like something I would see on a corner module of an N-Trak layout with some kid running their Shinkansen set way too fast. It looked just like a model train derailment.

I'm also surprised that in today's world full of computerized controls that there wasn't some sort of automated speed control on that high-speed train for reducing its speed on this severely restricted speed curve.

[nkalanaga]

Peteski:  "Model train" was my first thought as well...

A question for anyone familiar with the railroad:  It's obviously electrified, and most high-speed trains are electric.  A news report today said the diesel fuel in the locomotive caught fire.  Is this train diesel powered, or did it carry fuel for a backup generator for some reason, or was the report simply wrong?  I've tried stopping the video and can't tell of the loco had a pantograph or not.

For anyone wondering why an electric would need fuel, both the PRR and MILW passenger motors had oil fired steam generators.  It looked a little funny to see one trailing smoke.  I'm thinking this one may have a generator for HEP during station stops or power failures.

[postman]

Peteski:  "Model train" was my first thought as well...

A question for anyone familiar with the railroad:  It's obviously electrified, and most high-speed trains are electric.  A news report today said the diesel fuel in the locomotive caught fire.  Is this train diesel powered, or did it carry fuel for a backup generator for some reason, or was the report simply wrong?  I've tried stopping the video and can't tell of the loco had a pantograph or not.

For anyone wondering why an electric would need fuel, both the PRR and MILW passenger motors had oil fired steam generators.  It looked a little funny to see one trailing smoke.  I'm thinking this one may have a generator for HEP during station stops or power failures.

The train was a Talgo 730 hybrid. This train is electric and diesel, it can run in non electrified lines. Per train unit there are 2 operating heads (2 electric operating heads coupled to 2 trucks-backup generators  for the diesel engines).

http://www.ferropedia.es/wiki/Renfe_Serie_730

A video of this train:

[RockGp40]

I will chime in here a bit. This was a huge, seemingly negligent operation of the train by the engineer. News reports says he was twice the speed allowed for the curve and perhaps he was on the wrong track (non-HSR). When its all said and done, I bet he does lots of jail time.

I would bet a rail broke too as he got some of the head end around the curve before it all came off.

Also, I had a very positive experience on Renfe, but that was in 1992, the year of Barcelona's Olympics.

[nkalanaga]

Postman:  Thank you!  And thanks for the link.  I don't read Spanish, but can puzzle out much of it, especially when I know what it's talking about.  A very odd arrangement.  I would have thought they'd put the diesel engine in the lead unit, like an FL9.  Dual voltage and diesel is probably also unique.

In a way it reminds me of the old MILW, with a lead electric controlling trailing diesel(s).  They usually used both at the same time, but I've read stories of running through work zones on only the diesels, pans down, but still controlled from the electric.

Apparently the train is dual gauge, which I knew some earlier Talgo versions were.  Are the locomotives also dual gauge, or do they have to be changed at gauge-change points?

I used Google Translate on the webpage and the translation was almost as confusing as trying to read the Spanish...