Taking the Plunge on Turnout Construction

[jdcolombo]

After all the discussion in the Atlas Track shipping thread, I finally decided to try building my own, though with the help of a Fast Tracks jig.  So I took the plunge and today ordered a complete kit from Fast Tracks for #5 code 55 turnouts.  Though my layout is essentially complete from a track standpoint, there are a couple of spots where I may add some switching, and the #5's will be helpful for that.

I decided to use the jig to start with as the best route to becoming familiar with the overall process.  Yes, it's expensive, but not so bad if you amortize the cost over a dozen turnouts, and I simply wanted a way to have everything I needed at once and maximize the chance for positive results.  After I make a few with this setup (the kit has enough material for 5 turnouts), then I might try my hand at using just the templates (there are a couple of places on my layout where a curved turnout would be useful; that's probably my ultimate goal - to be able to make a turnout "in place" that exactly fits what I need, instead of designing the trackwork around the available turnouts!).

Since I am a complete novice at this process, I'll use this thread to chronicle my progress, frustrations (if any) and success (hopefully) in case any of you want to take the same path in light of Atlas' continuing track delivery issues.   Will take a while to get the kit from Fast Tracks, so don't expect any updates very soon.

One question for those of you that have done this before: hinged points or not?  The Fast Tracks videos talk about doing it both ways; I'd actually prefer not, since in my mind that's just one more potential failure point, but I realize that hinging the points will put less stress on the joint at the throwbar and make the points easier to move, especially with "shorter" turnouts like a #5.  Maybe I'll try it both ways and see what happens.

John C.

[chicken45]

Are the FT turnouts interchangeable with Atlas code 55 turnouts? Is the geometry the same? They look a little shorter.

[jagged ben]

One question for those of you that have done this before: hinged points or not?  The Fast Tracks videos talk about doing it both ways; I'd actually prefer not, since in my mind that's just one more potential failure point, but I realize that hinging the points will put less stress on the joint at the throwbar and make the points easier to move, especially with "shorter" turnouts like a #5.  Maybe I'll try it both ways and see what happens.

John C.

I've done a few, none of them with hinged points.    Haven't had any problems so far, although they have mostly been larger turnouts.   

The big drawback to the N-scale FT jigs, in my opinion, is that there aren't enough PCB ties holding the stock rails together in the points area.  There is just that one tie on the facing point edge.  The stress from the wire on a Tortoise eventually breaks the stockrails off that single tie, and then you have a deformed turnout.   So when you're done building the turnout in the jig, take it out and put a couple extra PCB ties to the outside of that one. 

[babbo_enzo]

'till now I've more than 50 turnouts  N scale Code 55 #6 and are running with zero problems ( some curved 30/28 too )
and have to make additional 40! My poor !
BUT ... I use servo and Tam valley Octopus driver, that self calculate the end point where push the rail points ( can be influent on the discussion ?)
Anyway I've done all without  hinged points and no additional copper tie ( not that I feel the N scale FT jiigs are "perfect"! )
I've try to transform a Double slip point rails with Hinge , but I've to admit it's not for a first player ( at least me )

[jdcolombo]

I've done a few, none of them with hinged points.    Haven't had any problems so far, although they have mostly been larger turnouts.   

The big drawback to the N-scale FT jigs, in my opinion, is that there aren't enough PCB ties holding the stock rails together in the points area.  There is just that one tie on the facing point edge.  The stress from the wire on a Tortoise eventually breaks the stockrails off that single tie, and then you have a deformed turnout.   So when you're done building the turnout in the jig, take it out and put a couple extra PCB ties to the outside of that one.

Thanks for the tip - that shouldn't be hard to do once the basic "skeleton" is done in the jig.  I wondered about this - I've seen other hand-made turnouts that seem to use more PCB ties than the Fast Tracks ones do.

John C.

[robert3985]

Hey John, congrats on holding your nose and taking the plunge!  I agree that it's better to have more PCB ties than not enough, and in my book, FT's design is lacking.  It's an easy deal to solder 'em on, so no biggie.

However, having the closure points being held to the "throwbar" by simply soldering them on is a weak point in the design, and "no hinge" is convenient, but is the main ingredient in causing the points to eventually break off the throwbar.

Yeah, I know that some of your turnouts are built this way and work just fine forever, and some of mine do to.  But, there are some that constantly break...even after replacing the throwbar (because the copper cladding is ripped off) and continue to break.  I went so far as to bend over the foot of the rail at the points at right angles to the stock rails, filing everything off them except the foot, then using that big foot as a large surface area to solder to.  Didn't help.

Interestingly, it's the code 55 turnouts that have the problem.  All of my code 40 turnouts built my "old way" haven't broken, and I think it's because the smaller rail is more flexible.

Ideally, you want your closure points/throwbar/heel hinges to form a parallelogram with hinges on each corner, which relieves each corner of 95% of the stresses associated with throwing the switch. 

Second best would be to have hinges at the heels that offer "slippage" such as a modified railjoiner or the Proto87 Stores etched NS heel block/hinges, so the heels of the closure points can slip back and forth in the hinges...this would be with the points soldered solidly to the throwbar.

Another "second best" is this: Having solid "hinges" such as notching the closure rails at the heel block so the rail web (I call these "notch hinges") forms a tiny flexible section but it doesn't do the trick if you solder the points solidly to the PCB throwbar.  The points will continue to break the solder joint at the throwbar.  If you provide hinges on the the throwbar, and if the throwbar isn't a tight fit between the headblocks, that will allow the geometry to function properly in the turnout's switch area...and the closure rails soldered to a PCB tie towards the frog, with the notch hinges on the closure point side of the PCB tie won't break that solder joint.  I've never had the solder joint break in this area.

I think a good, fairly quick and robust combination that looks good (more prototypical) would be to use hinges to secure the points at the headblock area onto the throwbar, then do the "notch hinges" at the heel blocks.  This will stabilize the closure rails/points so they won't tip over and there won't be a solder joint at the throwbar to fail.  This also is a very clean and efficient way to provide power to the closure points, which do not rely on contact with the adjacent stock rails.  VERY DCC FRIENDLY, with PCB ties forming the circuit (getting power from the stock rails) which powers the adjacent closure points and closure rails.

I'm going to post a photo that's been posted a few times on this board in various threads to illustrate what my hinge scheme is at the throwbar, and what the "notch hinges" look like at the heel blocks.

Throwbar hinges the way I do 'em now, which should work okay with "notch hinges" since there's no solder joints attaching the closure points to the throwbar to break.


Heel block "notch hinges" along with my "old-way" method of attaching the points to the PCB throwbar.  This combination will break the solder joints at the throwbar:

[Bruce Bird]

Hinge joints using modified rail joiners- takes all the stress off the throwbar and the turnout is more reliable and lasts longer.

For custom turnouts I always laid flex through on the main, brought in the siding track, cut the outside rail to match a smooth transition in to the siding, and then filled in the middle parts of the turnout.

Bruce

[Chris333]

I don't hinge my turnouts, but I do cut a notch in the bottom base rail. Leaving the web and top intact. I figure this will help a little and is better than nothing.

[jagged ben]

Another thought...

At the club we use an HO scale PCB tie for the throwbar.  No, it doesn't not look so prototypical.  But it does give more material to solder to and probably reduces our broken points quite a lot.

[robert3985]

My suggestions combine both appearance and function. 

If you're only concerened about function, you can get a turnout to work just fine and not worry about looks.  Then you'll have a turnout that's got no hinge for the closure point rails, frogs that are NMRA Standard...almost twice as long as prototypical, with the associated too long guardrails, big gaps at the points to make sure those toy flanges won't pick 'em, and that lovely HO tie between the headblocks for a throwbar, which is just the icing on the cake.

However, if you want a turnout that functions reliably, is durable and looks GREAT too...the "standard" way of constructing them isn't the way to go.

If you want to see what's available for making your hand-built N-scale turnouts look extremely prototypical and function great too, go to this site and have a look around: www.proto87stores.com   The three parts which I would suggest would be the NS fret of heel block/hinges/throwbars, the tri-planed closure points (get the short ones), and the etched NS frog kits (either in kit form, or pre-assembled for mo' money).  The parts will greatly add to the prototypical look of your turnout, make it work better and shorten your assembly time...but, it will cost you more.

If you want to get completely carried away, there's a fret of detail parts for turnouts up to a #10...but the tieplates are for code 40.  They can be used on code 55 by cutting them where the rail would normally attach (between spikeheads) and inserting the cut tie-plates from both sides of the rail between the foot of the rail and the tie.  Frankly, I'm not convinced all that detail is worth the effort yet.  I need to get my Emory Center Siding LDE done before making a final judgement.  However, it's good to know the parts are there if you decide you want to detail out your turnouts.

I only recommend the extra effort if you're concerned about detail.  If you're not, then just make 'em according to the Fast Tracks directions.

Andy Reichert, the proprietor of Proto87 Stores, recommends gluing all the components with just a little soldering here and there.  Fast Tracks jigs are designed to use PCB ties with the rails soldered to them.  The jury is out on which is best, but I use a combination of both assembly techniques, which works well for me, with an emphasis on soldering...but my layout is portable and goes to three shows a year, so I'm building for durability too.

Any way you look at it, when trains are running smoothly and reliably over a turnout you've built with your own two hands, there's a lot of satisfaction to that!

[babbo_enzo]

Just few 2 cents that are floating in my mind:
- use proper flux : see for example ( I don't know where to buy similar products in US but sure somebody can suggest )
  http://www.finescale.org.uk/index.php?route=product/category&path=446_453
  I use a liquid flux ( seems oil but I don't know exactly what it's ... sorry)
- And use a proper Alloy ( well not "lead" but solder ) :  I use ally that contain a little part of silver.
http://www.finescale.org.uk/index.php?route=product/category&path=446_453_454

Using proper products can enhanche a lot the solder point.

[robert3985]

Just few 2 cents that are floating in my mind:
- use proper flux : see for example ( I don't know where to buy similar products in US but sure somebody can suggest )
  http://www.finescale.org.uk/index.php?route=product/category&path=446_453
  I use a liquid flux ( seems oil but I don't know exactly what it's ... sorry)
- And use a proper Alloy ( well not "lead" but solder ) :  I use ally that contain a little part of silver.
http://www.finescale.org.uk/index.php?route=product/category&path=446_453_454

Using proper products can enhanche a lot the solder point.

I agree completely that proper soldering technique, along with proper flux and solder is essential for your turnouts to get built quickly and last a long time. 

I haven't got into it here because there are a few schools of thought as to what exactly IS the "best" flux, solder and technique, so I'll tell you my "secrets" (which aren't secrets at all) how to get excellent, long-lasting solder joints that don't deteriorate over time.

First thing is to get the proper equipment.  Soldering rail to PCB ties is not like soldering SMD's to a circuit board, so you need an iron that's at least 135 Watts 35 Watts.  Code 55 takes more heat than code 40, but my old Archer 135 Watt iron 35 Watt iron, with a wedge tip, has worked excellently for me for over 20 years building turnouts made from code 70 down to code 40.

Of course, a variable temperature soldering station is very nice to have, but you don't NEED it to make turnouts.

Make sure your soldering station has a place for a wet sponge and a stick-it-on can of tinning solution.

This is probably the most important part....FLUX...I've used just about all of 'em, and some were an absolute disaster over the long run, resulting in turnouts that were simply falling apart, and ties that were disintegrating.  Yup, acid flux sure makes the solder flow, but we're not soldering copper pipes together for your toilet here, we're doing precise work that gets glued and painted, and is comprised of many small, precise joints...each one of which is required to hold securely over a long time (decades).

The very best flux I've found is called "Superior No. 30 Supersafe Soldering Flux" and is available from H & N Electronics here: http://www.ccis.com/home/hn/page22.html   I use the gel, and over the last 30 years, I've only used two bottles of the stuff for all the brass and NS models I've built, so it goes a long way. 

Here's where I get into trouble with certain forum members who have never tried Supersafe flux but who have a "hot-button" about absolutes.  Tough.  In my experience, this is the A-1, absolute BEST flux available for small modeling projects.  I am not the only one who believes this, and if you look hard, you'll find many recommendations from model railroaders who scratchbuild out of brass and NS who use this product.  It will revolutionize your soldering prowess.  It will turn difficult projects into no-worry, confident processes.

While you're at it when you're at the H & N Electronics website, pick up some good solder too.  I use their 96/4 Tin/Silver coreless lead-free solder available here: http://www.ccis.com/home/hn/page5.html  and get some lead-free tip-tinner while you're at it.  Pick up two or three applicator bottles for your flux while you're there too available here: http://www.ccis.com/home/hn/page30.html

Okay.  Now you've got the right equipment and soldering materials, you need to concentrate on technique.  I'm not going to write up a soldering tutorial, but I'm going to give you a few pointers that will make your turnout making experience more efficient.

(1) The tip of your soldering iron should always be clean and bright (shiny) and tinned before attempting to create a solder joint.  I don't even think about it anymore, I just habitually make sure I've wiped the tip on my wet sponge and looked to see if it's shiny before soldering.

(2) Remove oxidation from the surfaces you're going to solder.  This is easy, and PCB ties as well as the bottom of the foot of your rail should be simply burnished with a pink eraser on the back of a pencil.  A few swipes, and the copper is shiny and the bottom of your rail is ready to go (unweathered rail please).

(3) Don't apply more solder than is needed.  This is always a problem when learning to make turnouts.  Most of the time, you don't want a big glob of solder showing, so an easy way to make your solder smaller is to smash the end of it with flat-nose pliers and split it down the middle with your Xacto knife.  I do this if I need just a very small amount for about 3/8ths of an inch, which usually will get me three or four joints before I do it again.  Another way is to tin one or both surfaces before putting them together by fluxing and wiping the tip of your tinned solder tip along the surface.  This is especially easy on PCB ties.

(4) Managing solder flow.  Sometimes there are areas you  don't want solder to flow into, such as between the headblocks and the bottoms of the closure points.  You don't want your closure points soldered to them, or any solder to be on the sufaces of the headblocks where the closure points slide on.  You also don't want even a little blob of solder on the insides of your stock rails where they'll meet with your closure points as this will keep the points from mating up with the adjacent stock rail's inner surface to form a smooth transition for your wheels and flanges to roll over.  The solution is very easy and it involves just marking the area you don't want solder to flow onto/into with a #2 pencil.  I pencil the areas on my headblocks with my trusty (and sharp) pencil, and the solder simply doesn't go there.  Sometimes I just pencil on a line, but most of the time, I scribble a thicker area to make sure the solder won't cross over, such as where the points sit on the headblocks.  Simple, fast and cheap.

(5) PCB (Printed Circuit Board) is not indestructible, and too much heat will burn the fiberglass board underneath the copper cladding...which will then de-bond.  You don't want that to happen, so the idea is to get the heat to both the PCB and rail quickly, then get out.  You can tell when the heat is sufficient because the solder will get very shiny and capillary action will take it completely under the rail foot to the other side.  When you see this happen, TAKE YOUR IRON OFF...immediately...let it cool then test the joint by flexing it a bit with your tweezers.  The two parts will stay stuck together if it's a good joint (obviously).

(6) WASH YOUR TURNOUT.  Even though Supersafe No. 30 automatically neutralizes the minute amount of acid in it with the heat of soldering the joints, you'll get some residue on your assembly.  I wash mine in hot tap water, and use a soft toothbrush and a little dishwashing detergent to get in the areas where wheels will roll (frog and guardrail gaps, heel block hinges, throwbar and closure points).  This brightens everything up, lets you see where you might need to file away excess solder and reveals bad solder joints.

The next tip is not about soldering, but about gapping your PCB ties.  It's common practice to gap them right down the middle with a fairly deep slot.  I don't know why this is common practice because it (1) makes it obvious where the PCB ties are, and it (2) weakens the ties.  If you don't care if every PCB tie has a slot down its middle, please remove as little from the surface as possible (from a depth standpoint).  As long as the copper cladding is gapped and the burrs are filed off, that's all that counts.  Removing fiberglass is not needed.

A better appearing method is to take an oval jeweler's file and file a gradual, but wide gap in the copper cladding on each PCB tie.  Angle these gaps in different directions and don't put all of them in the exact middle between the rails.  When you paint, ballast and weather your finished turnouts using this gapping method, the PCB ties will virtually disappear, which is what you want from a cosmetic point of view.

Okay...that's about it for today.  These methods and materials have been very good to me in my turnout building experience, but, I am sure there are other methods and materials that work for others.  However, you can't go wrong here, and if you take my advice, it'll save you a lot of headaches and frustration down the line.

(CORRECTION: 35 Watt iron, NOT 135 Watt.  Sorry...that typo got through)

 

[jdcolombo]

Jeez, Bob: 135 watts?  Really? That actually MIGHT solder copper pipe . . .   I've got an old Weller soldering GUN that I don't think is 135 watts . . .

I'd already heard about Supersafe flux; this is something I'll need to get.  I've been soldering small electrical connections for 50 years (yep, started when I was 7 years old with a Heathkit radio kit) and have never used flux - just a good rosin core solder and very clean components/PC board.  But that was soldering wires (thin ones, at that).  So I'll go the flux route with the turnouts and get the Supersafe stuff.

Interesting thoughts on solder; again, I've got a large roll of very thin 60/40 tin/lead rosin core solder that I've used for probably 20 years (don't use much of this stuff soldering sound decoder wires or even 24-gauge track feeders).   Is the tin/silver mix stronger?  Back when I was in high school, I worked with a guy that did musical instrument repair, and he only used silver solder, but I think part of that was because you didn't want lead leaching into a musical instrument than someone was breathing in to.  But if the silver solder mix is stronger, that would be a reason to do it for turnout construction.

Looks like I'll be developing more techniques than I originally thought!

John C.

[peteski]

Speaking of flux, has anybody read the letter to the editor in the current issue on MR Magazine. A person with a professional soldering experience also states that no extra flux should ever be needed during soldering.  In my experience, I find that sometimes the resin flux in the solder is often too mild to clean the soldered surfaces.

Besides, if no extra flux was ever needed, why are there so many different standalone fluxes available out there? 

[chicken45]

Wow, Bob. All I can say is "thank you for that info." Truely fantastic stuff.

But in other news, I was trying to replace my Atlas code 55 turnouts with FastTrack turnouts. The problem is that in AnyRail, they are different sizes from the FT templates!