Pennsy T1 Build

[Lemosteam]

I for one will be powering both; the boiler using two Bachmann Northern mechs and the tender using a Lifelike FA2 mech.  Electrical pickup will be through the FA2 mech and the lead and trailing trucks of the boiler as well as the bachmann mechs.  Wish me luck.   

I am actually hoping for independent driver slippage like the prototype.  NO I WILL NOT BE TRYING TO SYNC SOUND!!!

[superturbine]

I have a firm dislike of tender-drives except in the smallest of locos where only tiny pager motors would fit (like the Atlas 4-4-0), but at least with those they use drive-shafts to utilize the loco's actual drives rather than the tender trucks.
To me it is making an excellent loco less realistic by having the driving force not in the actual locomotive. Plus, with a duplex loco such as the T1, it would be more appropriate to have two motors, and preferably both in the boiler.


-Cody F.

Thats the beauty of buying a casting.  You can build your engine any way you want. As for me I think it will be more appropriate to have a stump pulling, smooth tender drive, instead of 2 motors fighting each other.........

I'm no Max.

Jason Smith
Tomball Locomotive Works

[VonRyan]

Just wondering, how can you tell?

I've seen examples of tender-driven locos that were more realistic, because all of the gearing and whatnot went away from around the drivers.

You're right on that David, and using the driveshaft and tender-motor method has enabled models of UK-prototype steam locomotives to finally have daylight under the boiler, but without sacrificing the pulling strength of the drivers.
As for how "I" can tell, in such a case I know from it being advertised as such, or by looking under the hood (or boiler-lagging in this case).
For me it's something of preference, as i'd rather a model engine which runs in a similar matter to its prototype (without the sacrifice of pulling power as can happen with a strictly tender-driven engine) even if it might not be 100% aesthetically pleasing in the area around the drivers.

Thats the beauty of buying a casting.  You can build your engine any way you want. As for me I think it will be more appropriate to have a stump pulling, smooth tender drive, instead of 2 motors fighting each other.........

I'm no Max.

Jason Smith
Tomball Locomotive Works

There is only one max, and that's for sure.
As to a stump-puller, at the size of the T1 (and in your case, the tender) there is probably only a negligible difference between the three methods of motoring such a beast. Plus you can get quite a big motor in that tender. Shame we're working in N because I have a 7-pole, skew-wound pittman motor (with gearbox) that could amount to quite a puller, I dont know the armature diameter, but it is probably equal to the width of the tender itself, so that would also rule out building the tender to be the actual motor.

I for one will be powering both; the boiler using two Bachmann Northern mechs and the tender using a Lifelike FA2 mech.  Electrical pickup will be through the FA2 mech and the lead and trailing trucks of the boiler as well as the bachmann mechs.  Wish me luck.   

I am actually hoping for independent driver slippage like the prototype.  NO I WILL NOT BE TRYING TO SYNC SOUND!!!

That calls for some brass passenger cars so you can get it to slip with a proto-lenght train. 


-Cody F.

[delamaize]

Just wondering, how can you tell?

I've seen examples of tender-driven locos that were more realistic, because all of the gearing and whatnot went away from around the drivers.

@Cody, I'm putting my smart a$$ hat on here, witch is tender drive.
this:

or this:


I'd be willing to bet you can't tell.

I personally don't care where the drive is at, as long as it runs well.

Also, Jason, do you have any more castings and How much? I still want one!!!

[mmagliaro]

Slow and steady wins the race, Jason.  I am sure you can build this. 

A tender drive should work in this engine.  The tender is large enough to accomodate plenty of weight and
however many wheels you want to gear up.
The only tricky part is that with long 4-axle trucks, it may be necessary for them to actually swivel and be powered,
like diesel trucks.  I don't know if you can get away with a single rigid truck with the motor on it, and one truck
that swivels with no drive.

As for "max"... heh, thanks guys.  The only reason I made mine with dual motors and an engine drive is because that honestly
was the only way I could think of at the time to make it work.  And Jason's note about 2 motors fighting each other is well-taken.
The first version I built used 2 different motors (a 12mm Sagami and a 10mm Sagami).  I did this because I could not
mill enough room out of the lower front frame to get a 12mm motor up there under the area where the boiler narrows.
However, a few years later, after I had a vertical mill, I was able to cut more precisely, so I found that I could indeed mill
out that frame some more, just enough to get a second 12mm Sagami in there.
I had to do this out of necessity, because the original 10mm motor failed.  If I were a betting man, I'd say that the
two motors with different speed characteristics, with the 12mm being slower,  eventually sent the 10mm motor to an early grave.
The engine ran fine, but the 10mm version has higher RPMs.  That means that it was being held back all of the time,
which probably made it work very hard and fail.

If you are going to use 2 motors, you must use identical motors with identical gearing.
I "got away with it" for a while, but had to fix it.  Dual motors are cool.  The engine does indeed run with its rods
in and out of sync, and one engine truck can occasionally slip independently of the other, just like the real thing.
But I don't think those attributes are worth it if you can get a good tender drive.

[chicken45]

Max,
I hope you and John are hashing things out behind the scenes.
Then he can impart that knowledge to me!

[CodyO]

then you can impart that knowledge to me too!

[peteski]

Cody,
I'm not sure why you have such an aversion for the motor housed in the tender.  There are 2 very different types of this kind of drive.

1. Motor in the tender with a drive-shaft which drives the drivers of the locomotive.  This locos pulling ability greatly depends on the weight of the locomotive.  Since the motor is in the tender, the locomotive can be crammed with ballast (like lead or tungsten).  To me it is actually advantageous to have the motor mounted in he tender since per cubic inch the weight of lead or tungsten is greater than the motor's weight.  To me this type of a model is not really a "tender-drive" model but rather "tender-mounted motor drive".

2. True tender-drive locomotives have the motor and gear train mounted in the tender driving some or all of he tender wheels. The locomotive is just a dummy since it has free spinning drivers. It is pretty much used only for electric pickup.  Those types of models usually have multiple traction tires on the driven tender wheels. They also use metal frame and sometimes metal thnder shell along with extra ballast to make the tender as heavy as possible. Those models are actually excellent pullers.  Many Europeam-made models (like Fleischmann or Minitrix) use this type of mechanism.  In the newer models of this type the sound decoder and speaker is installed in the dummy locomotive and that setup works quite well.

I'm also a bit puzzled why modelers want to cram huge motors into their models. I haven't yet encountered any N scale loco where its standard (factory-installed) motor didn't have enough torque to spin its wheels in place (slipping) when it it was trying to pull too many cars. To me that indicates that the motor is adequate for that model.  I don't believe that installing a more powerful motor would not improve that models pulling ability.

[mmagliaro]

Max,
I hope you and John are hashing things out behind the scenes.
Then he can impart that knowledge to me!

  As for imparting knowledge, everything I know about
building a T1 was written in a lengthy NTrak Steam Loco Book article (100 photos and all!).  So I'm not trying to keep
any secrets 

Jason, ahem, maybe you should take lots of photos as you work on this.   And don't crop them, so they can be 8x10 300 dpi....
(I hear that's what the magazines will ask for... hint hint)

[superturbine]

Thanks Max.........It appears I really talked myself into this one!
Cast and Built the second engine tonight and as you can see the combined engines are too long.  So, now to figure out how to shorted them...



Shown in the picture is a modified main rod and altered location of cylinder, the crosshead is super glued into location but will later have bracing installed.  Obviously, stilll need to figure out eccentric rod and location.

[mmagliaro]

Oh my God, Jason, you are bringing back such memories.  I had the same exact problem splicing two Con-Cor 4-6-4 chassis.  The cylinders were too far forward and the whole thing was too long.    I had to move the cylinder saddle backward on the rear engine, and remount it with some screws into holes in the frame.   I know that everybody is going to love watching you make this.
But for me, I am enjoying it in a way I don't even know how to explain. 

[Lemosteam]

Max, you are enjoying it because it's not you!  You get to watch for once!

[kelticsylk]

I for one will be powering both; the boiler using two Bachmann Northern mechs and the tender using a Lifelike FA2 mech.  Electrical pickup will be through the FA2 mech and the lead and trailing trucks of the boiler as well as the bachmann mechs.  Wish me luck.   

I am actually hoping for independent driver slippage like the prototype.  NO I WILL NOT BE TRYING TO SYNC SOUND!!!

Are you planning on using the old Bachmann drive or the newer one.  I was thinking the old drive would be easier to modify, but the axle gear issue killed the thought.

Edit: Fixed quote. --DKS

[superturbine]

Oh my God, Jason, you are bringing back such memories.  I had the same exact problem splicing two Con-Cor 4-6-4 chassis.  The cylinders were too far forward and the whole thing was too long.    I had to take move the cylinder saddle backward on the rear engine, and remount it with some screws into holes in the frame.   I know that everybody is going to love watching you make this.
But for me, I am enjoying it in a way I don't even know how to explain.

Oh yes,  good times, good times!! 
What makes it enjoyable for me, as with other builds of this type, you run is to obstacles which seam impossible to overcome.  But with fortitude and perseverance and a little creative thinking, you overcome challenges.  In the end, like climbing a mountian, you can sit back and enjoy the view, with great satisfaction!

Thats why we scratch build/kitbash

[chicken45]

Max, you are enjoying it because it's not you!  You get to watch for once!

He will return to us. It is the will of the Keystone.