Rivers in Kentucky / Virginia Coal Country

[davidgray1974]

Well I'm getting closer to start working on my river but I am currently having a brain block.  As most of you know, this is my very first layout and I'm still new to alot of this.  Up until this point I've been pretty good about going with the flow and achieving the look I wanted, but I'm at a complete standstill on this one.   I've looked for pictures on railpictures.net and other sites, but I haven't found a whole heck of a lot that help.  I even did a search here but didn't come up with much.  If I find any, they are from regions I'm not modeling and if I do find one in the region I need, most are arial shots and don't show enough detail.  I guess what I'm asking for is if anyone else has any pictures or suggestions to use as a reference to model a river in and around Kentucky/Virginia.

Other info needed would be:
Should I paint the base of the river black, grey or a brownish color?
Should I install the rocks around the edge and then drybrush or airbrush on varying shades of grey to darken them up?
Can anyone recommend a good paint mixture for achieving a realistic looking river color?  I'm assuming a brownish green color?
 
Basically, here is a picture of what my river edge looks now with grey natural stone next to it. 


Here is the only picture I've found that even comes close to the color of the rocks I'm looking for.


Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

David

[Dave V]

Depends on what you're after...  I would recommend black for the channel tapering to earth in the shallow sides.  Any messing with blues or trying to make it look muddy will decrease your chances of getting it right the first time.

Not sure if this is the look you're after, but that's the technique I used for this:

[Smike]

Hi David, here is my $.02

When I built my diorama based on the same type of area you are building, I too got stuck on the river. What did it for me was getting a couple of handfuls of fine gravel in various sizes right from almost sand to about 1/4, all right from a real stream.  I sifted out the rocks into various size piles, then I mixed in chalks to color them a bit to match the surrounding rock that I had already. I used just enough greys etc.. to give it color but still kept some of the natural color variation. I then spread the small stuff around and made what would be a natural stream channel (not much more then 1/4 deep at most, as I wanted a little variation but not too much to spend years filling it with whatever water resin you use.  Then I placed some larger stuff here and there and a couple larger ones in as well. Once I felt that was good, I coated with matte medium to hold it in place. Once dried I painted the deepest section of the channel with really watered down acrylics (brown that was almost black with some blue) to blend it in. Then I used Modge Podge Gloss to fill in the water. (Using that stuff was slow and I think there is better stuff on the market.

Here is some pics

Before adding the water:


Here after about 3 coats of the Modge Podge (it still needs more to smooth out the shallow ends)




http://www.trainboard.com/grapevine/attachment.php?attachmentid=36104&d=1302993910

Here is the finished form, ignore the Photoshop background) I'll see if I can dig it up and get more 'direct' shots for you.

 

[Scottl]

Many modelers just fill the river to simulate a deep channel, but the photo you give shows a different channel type that needs a different approach.

The riffles you see in that photograph are rarely captured in models very well, but I have thought about a few ideas over the years.  It depends how serious you want to be, but I would build up the river with some different minor levels, a few mm thick, using styrene or whatever you have.  That would give you a bit of relief for the river. Make the edges irregular so you have some nice little eddy pools and scours, like in the photo.  It does not need to be very deep to be effective.

 Next, I have found the WS talus and other material too regular and rounded to capture the look of random large boulders in rivers.  One approach that gives a nice randomness is to make a thin plaster casting and break it up and selectively add the bits to the river bed.  Some of them should be located on the down flow end of your raised levels in the water, so you get some continuity with the water relief.  In real rivers, those boulders hold back water, giving the look your picture shows.  You might have scraps of your rock material too.

Coloring depends on the sediment load, but I think deep blues, payne gray and blacks, with dark browns are the tones for the relatively clear water of KY and VA.  I would avoid applying the colors evenly, and aim for more dark tones in the deeper spots, with lighter mixes around the boulders and the shore.  There will be deeper spots around and downstream of the boulders, in the river or along the shore, so don't make the shore too even.  That is what usually gives a model river away.

Finally, cover it with a gloss coat or resin.  I prefer gloss medium or paste for control, but resin is OK if you don't mind it leveling a bit.  A few coats of gloss will give you just the look you want.  Some low boulders can be submerged for effect.  Adding some dry brushed whites for rapids will complete the effect.

Just some thoughts.  I'm looking forward to seeing what you come up with.

[basementcalling]

http://www.americanwhitewater.org/content/River/state-summary/state/WV/


The American Whitewater site has some great river shots on most white water paddling streams in every state. The link above is to West VA.

You can also use Google Earth and Bing Maps to get good overhead shots. If the pictures were taken when the river was running clear, its very easy to pick out the shallow and deep portions, but I would keep model river colors much simpler: basic dark for deeper spots and an earth tone that matches your banks for the shallow spots.



Here's a lower angle shot with some typical rocks in the background. Note how much of what is visible underwater has a greenish tint to it.



Another shot. Ignore the fish and focus on the underwater areas in the background.

[Scottl]

Ignore the fish, yeah right.  Looks like nice water.

The greenish color is later in the year as algae grows.  Most of those rivers are brown/blue/black in the spring so like the vegetation, you need to choose a season.

[davidgray1974]

Wow guys!  Alot of terrific information here!  After I originally posted, I went ahead and started painting the base black and feathered the edges with some L&N grey, which I think may be too light. 



I have to say, since seeing Mikes (Smike) work, I feel like I need to take a different approach.  Wyou have done looks amazing!  You literally have to take a second look to see if it is a real scene.  Would love to be on this level of modeling.  Teach me.  I'm not worthy!    Would also love to know how you did your trees, bushes... I guess everything you've done in your scenes as well.  When you used the modge podge, did you color it at all or use it straight from the bottle?  Haven't really decided on what method I will use to make the water as of yet.

All I have right not is WS Talus in various sizes.  See below.


Maybe I will have to find a nearby stream for river rock, or do you think the WS talus will work if I color it and add varying shades with chalks?  I know its said the talus is way lighter than real rocks, but will white glue and matte medium secure it well enough not to float?  I also like Scottl's approach with using broken thin caster plastings or rubber rock pieces in varying areas.

Thanks for the weblink basementcalling.  I haven't looked at everything on the site yet, but just a few links I have clicked on there seem to have great pictures which have started the creative juices flowing. 

Thanks again guys!  Please, if you have any other suggestions or comments, please let me know!

[Hornwrecker]

Try a darker shade of your typical dirt color for the edges of the bank, instead of the light gray.  It should help tie it in with the rest of your scenery.  Put the gray talus  on top of that.  I'd go with making it out of smashed up plaster that was suggested, then soaking it your black india ink wash to get it to your rock color.  I pour my leftover plaster into an old box top from a model kit, about a 1/4" thick, then break it up, so I'll have it for later use.

[robert3985]

You're assuming that the deepest parts of the river run down the middle.  In my rivers, I'll curve the deepest (blackest) parts to the outside of curves, and place visible submerged sand bars in areas that are shallow or on the inside of river curves.  Also, don't make the width of your submerged banks too uniform, although the blending of your submerged banks into the deeper parts looks good, you're gonna find that the paint you're using is too light, even though it will darken up some after you've applied "water" to it.  Also, it should be greener, as even in extremely clear, clean rivers and streams, the water will make things look greener which under its surface.

Here's a photo that was taken of a module me and my friend Kelly Newton built for a customer several years ago.  I did the rivers and bridges and Kelly did the rock carving.  This is to represent Utah topography, so it's more barren than back East, but the river is built from making a shallow riverbed, painting it with green, light brown and black mixed to represent underwater topography and weeds, the banks were secured in place with the usual diluted white glue/water mix, the about half an inch of resin was poured, the bubbles gotten rid of my blowing on it with long straws.  Both Kelly and I about passed out from hyperventilation doing this...also spit will drip out onto the surface, but don't worry about it.

After the resin has cured, I go over the areas all along the edges where it has crept up on the river banks with flat paint, and get rid of the glossy meniscus that resin forms because it doesn't look real at all since prototype rocks along a river are dry on top.

Then, I applied two coats of gloss medium over the mirror flat surface of the resin pour, implying ripples and rapids where there were rocks and shallows.  I painted white caps using acrylic Titanium White, then appied another thin coat of gloss medium to those areas so the whitecaps were shiny too.

I'm pretty happy with the way this combination of techniques looks and get a lot of questions and compliments by bystanders at shows with my rendition of the Weber and Echo rivers on my modular layout.

Here's a pic of the river at a big show in LA a few years ago.


Here's a photo of the Weber River in Wilhemina Pass on my old Ntrak module, built exactly the same as my above description except I built it up using about 5 thick coats of gloss medium rather than using any resin:


Here's a little river on my friend Nate's layout at Riverside which is also just several layers of gloss medium and WS "Water Effects", which is just really thick gloss medium.  Once again, a flat river bottom, painted "implied" depth, then a gloss overcoat with gloss medium brushed on to imply waves and ripples.


Rivers can really be a centerpiece to your scenery efforts and forever fascinate visitors as well as other model railroaders.  Good Luck!

[robert3985]

As to your question about talus.  I dig natural rock at the places I'm modeling, then grade it using several different screens, and I get four or five different styles and properties of rock from one bucket.  The finest is an ultra-fine dust, with gravels and "talus" chunks getting more prominent the larger the pieces are.

I also make sure that the dirt is "dead" by baking it my oven for an hour or so at temperatures above 300 deg....usually 350.  Yes, I am single, so I have no wife to question me about what I'm doing in her oven!

I look for sharp edged small rocks to put on the banks of my rivers, as these are what the prototype areas I'm modeling have.  Sometimes, I'll put rocks in the small rivers I'm modeling in the same places as reference photos I've found or taken.

My train buddy Gregg just digs rocks and dirt out of his yard or wherever he happens to be hiking on any particular day.  He's always got a small hand-shovel and containers to put his dirt into, and loves to show me what he's found.  Gregg models the entire RGS in Nn3 in his basement, using hand-laid code 30 ribbon rail on PCB ties.

So, I'd dig real rocks rather than mash up plaster or use kitty litter or WS stuff.  I think the real stuff looks best.

[Smike]

Thanks David, I must admit, I've been a big fan of your work as well. You have done a fantastic job with you trees, and scenery overall looks top notch. More than happy to share what I've done with trees, but watching your thread, you have been using a very similar method.

As for the rocks, I agree with others, either the smashed plaster, or real rocks. I've even smashed thin blue slate rocks ( which btw will match you current modeled rocks near perfectly ) . I covered it with a rag, and used a hammer.  I just never liked the 'fish tank rock' look of the WS stuff.  If you have trouble getting some smashed up blue shale, send me a PM, I have tons, happy to send some. I didn't color the Modge Podge, but I did layer on some watered down dark colors on some areas after the first coat or two. Then laid down more Modge Podge. That way I could adjust color as the gloss went on.

One thing to remember the type of area you are modeling is mostly a shale valley, and after a few million years stream beds will be loaded tons of small shale bits, (on the sides, in and out of the wate, just about everywhere but the deepest section, which will not be continuous, there will be shallow sections.) Make the rock bed terrain in the stream extend well up and above the sides, don't make an abrupt transition at the waters edge. I'll dig the module out of storage and shoot some more pics and post them if that will help.

Keep up the great work!

[Lemosteam]

How did you guys APPLY the mod podge?  Pour and brush, brush alone or just pour?

[Smike]

I would pour some then use a brush to move it around to help it settled more evenly. It does tend to ‘creep up’ the side of things which I don’t like. Also I’ve noticed once dried if the modge podge  gets wet it can screw up the nice gloss surface.  I feel like there has to be a better product. I think this months N Scale Magazine has a water article which I’m going to check out.

[DKS]

I feel like there has to be a better product.

There is a better product. http://www.staples.com/Reeves-Liquitex-Gloss-Gels-Medium/product_SS1082627

It's expensive, but IMO worth it. It comes in different degrees of thickness, so you can use the thinner version for smoother water, and the thick gel for waves.

This isn't a river, but it gives you and idea what you can do with a dead flat surface, some acrylic paints, and one coat of gel:



The talus along the banks is actually just unsifted dirt, secured with thinned white glue (I do not use matte medium as it has a tendency to form whitish globs, or what I call "snots").

More detail on this project: http://ganddinz.blogspot.com/2011/08/lake-redux.html

David, I think you're off to a good start; my recommendations are that the color gradations along the banks seem too uniform; I'd make them more irregular, and add shallow patches at random locations toward the middle of the river. Also, I wouldn't use the WS talus; just get some plain old rocky dirt, bake it to sterilize it, and sprinkle it around in irregular deposits until it looks natural. Also, take some large-ish rocks that have flat sides (or grind some flat surfaces on them) and glue them at strategic points on the river bed. Finally, you can make white water by mixing a very small amount of white acrylic paint into the gel and dabbing it on where white water would naturally occur.

Here are some rapids and small falls I did in Z scale--this whole scene is about the size of two business cards. White water is done by mixing tiny amounts of white acrylic into the gel.

[robert3985]

There is a better product. http://www.staples.com/Reeves-Liquitex-Gloss-Gels-Medium/product_SS1082627

It's expensive, but IMO worth it. It comes in different degrees of thickness, so you can use the thinner version for smoother water, and the thick gel for waves.

This isn't a river, but it gives you and idea what you can do with a dead flat surface, some acrylic paints, and one coat of gel:



The talus along the banks is actually just unsifted dirt, secured with thinned white glue (I do not use matte medium as it has a tendency to form whitish globs, or what I call "snots").

More detail on this project: http://ganddinz.blogspot.com/2011/08/lake-redux.html

David, I think you're off to a good start; my recommendations are that the color gradations along the banks seem too uniform; I'd make them more irregular, and add shallow patches at random locations toward the middle of the river. Also, I wouldn't use the WS talus; just get some plain old rocky dirt, bake it to sterilize it, and sprinkle it around in irregular deposits until it looks natural. Also, take some large-ish rocks that have flat sides (or grind some flat surfaces on them) and glue them at strategic points on the river bed. Finally, you can make white water by mixing a very small amount of white acrylic paint into the gel and dabbing it on where white water would naturally occur.

Here are some rapids and small falls I did in Z scale--this whole scene is about the size of two business cards. White water is done by mixing tiny amounts of white acrylic into the gel.

The surface looks too rough in the first photo in my opinion, unless you're modeling water surface during a storm. I retract my misgivings.  Shoulda known better as DKS almost always has reasons for his careful and attentive work! However, my observations of small freshwater lakes and local rivers shows combinations of both patterned and semi-smooth areas, and I rarely saw rough surfaces as DKS's photos show.  The smoothest river surface I ever saw was at 5 AM on the Columbia in my grandpa's aluminum fishing boat, headed east to the confluence of the Snake at Sacajawea Park, on our way to troll for Steelhead...pure glossy Envirotex for sure!  The roughest big river water I ever experienced was near the same spot but a little further south at Wallula Gap, where the Columbia cuts through basalt lava flows and is several miles wide.  Almost swamped my 17' Skagit outboard when the wind came up and the swells were at least 6' high...

However, I love the waterfalls and rapids!  Looks VERY convincing, although in Z-scale I'd probably have to have my Optivisors on to see it!